Dune Discord Server Book Discussion

2017-04-15_07:49:11 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I have alaways felt that in the books it is never explained how the Fremen are able to defeat the Sardaukar in the first Dune book. How are they able to defeat the battle hardened Sardaukar troops of the Emperor? In Lynch's movie the weiridng module is introduced to solve this problem. What do you think is the reason the Fremen are able to beat the Sardaukar in the book? @everyone

2017-04-15_07:57:20 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: The Weirding Way, Arrakis as "their salusa secundus", and their numbers.

2017-04-15_07:58:40 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Unlike the movie they are all fighting hand to hand. From childhood the Fremen are taught to fight, and fight fiercely. Paul trains a number of them in the Weirding Way, as well as his own Atreidies training.

2017-04-15_07:59:18 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: It's established well early that the Atreidies were the best fighters of the Landsraad Houses.

2017-04-15_07:59:34 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Thus why the Shaddam IV wants them out.

2017-04-15_08:01:01 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Later on, Thufir goes into detail about the prison planet and the comparison of it to Secundus. Arrakis is far harsher than any habitable planet in the universe, and the Fremen live it tooth and nail.

2017-04-15_08:01:18 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Thus, beyond their training, they are already under the conditions of brutality.

2017-04-15_08:02:12 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: The Fedaykin 1-1 against any Sardukar wins. They alone are some of the most powerful non-Main Cast fighters in the Dune universe.

2017-04-15_08:02:53 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Thanks...it makes more sense now

2017-04-15_08:04:07 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Glad to be of help, I love the Fremen 😄

2017-04-15_13:53:40 GMT | 256944073212952577 | Morgan Fremen: i always enjoyed the loyalty aspect they put into it; Artreides inspire loyalty in their followers like no other and that adds another dimension to the fierceness of their soldiers, and is instilled in the Fremen but as a religious dedication

2017-04-15_15:06:43 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes that plays a part as well

2017-04-15_19:32:49 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: It is shown that thirty Sardaukar can wound something like 3 fremen, fr 3 sardaukar survivors

2017-04-15_19:34:06 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: of course, Fremen were already outnumbering them. I have no doubt that if there was 3 Fremen versus 30 sardaukar, sardaukars would have less deaths. Teamwork OP

2017-04-15_19:37:04 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: Was the appearance of the sardaukar ever described in the book? In the 84 movie they had hazmat suits and in the miniseries they were like french royal guards

2017-04-15_19:37:32 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: I like the Swampert avatar btw, LackOfSins haha

2017-04-15_19:37:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: i thot hazmat suits were for the bad enviroment of Giedi Prime

2017-04-15_19:39:21 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: Yea but Sarfaukar is imperial, no reason to station troops on the Harkonnen homeworld. Oh wait, werent they disguised as Harkonnen troops or something like that?

2017-04-15_19:39:47 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yup

2017-04-15_19:40:17 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: in the books it is said they have lifestyles like lords of the minor houses

2017-04-15_19:48:27 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: hahah, i love swampert as well. My spirit pokemon lol.

2017-04-15_19:48:51 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Bashars* have life like lords of minor houses

2017-04-15_19:49:06 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: not all sardaukar. Because they would get soft

2017-04-15_19:49:19 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: ok

2017-04-16_11:01:22 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Anyone else here think that the Landsraad was underutilised in F.Herbert's Original Dune series? I mean how many great houses can you name other than Corrino, Atreides, or Harkonnen? The other Great Houses don't have any memorable characters

2017-04-16_17:24:21 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Maybe.

2017-04-16_17:25:00 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I don't think so, while Dune is a political novel it isn't LOTR, it isn't about telling you every bit of history for everything

2017-04-16_17:25:14 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: One the one hand, I feel as though it was a bit of a missed opportunity. There's definitely a lot that I wonder about the nature of the Houses. But if I think about it a bit more, I'm not sure that extrapolating on the Landsraad would have really added much richness to the themes in Dune

2017-04-16_17:25:58 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Dune plays in the realm of myth, and I feel like it's necessary for big parts of it to be a mystery. If everything is over-explained, it kind of ruins the style of worldbuilding Frank Herbert was going for.

2017-04-16_17:26:35 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: We learn about the Great Houses necessary to each book, as well as any sub-faction such as the Spacing Guild or the Bene Gesserit.

2017-04-16_17:54:58 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes I agree that it is essential for the mystery to remain..its better that way...but I personally would have liked a little bit more detail on the Landsraad and CHOAM

2017-04-16_17:54:59 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **dborta leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/303226785502461953/levelup.png

2017-04-16_18:00:56 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I guess a consideraton I'd bring up is whether or not bringing up the Landsraad and CHOAM would bring beyond satisfying reader curiosity. Because I can understand the desire to know more about the aspects in the Dune universe, but I have to temper that with a sense of "less is more" idea of storytelling. Frank Herbert does mention the philosophy of the knife as a way of paring away excess. If covering the Landsraad and CHOAM beyond what's already there in the story doesn't add meaning behind the ideas or story, is it really needed?

2017-04-17_21:11:46 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I think maybe two other Houses are names in the six original books. Surely inor

2017-04-17_21:11:50 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Minor*

2017-04-17_21:12:09 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: which are they?

2017-04-17_21:12:27 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I dunno. It's like the mention of Richesse

2017-04-17_21:12:37 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes i remeber now

2017-04-17_21:12:42 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: remember

2017-04-17_21:12:42 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: You see the name one time as a detail, it doesn't really matter

2017-04-17_21:13:36 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Anyway, I think the Major Houses are just similar to the feudal system from European Medieval Age/Renaissance, in the timeset of Dune

2017-04-17_21:14:02 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Baron/Duke/Marquess/Count (or comt ?)

2017-04-17_21:14:56 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: btw ain't you sleeping <@230009305326157825> ? Must be like 3 AM to you lol

2017-04-17_21:15:11 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes lol

2017-04-17_21:15:16 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: in 5 mins'

2017-04-17_21:15:42 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: oh gosh

2017-04-17_21:16:32 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@138005062478856192> I agree with what you say...but I was seriously expecting the Landsradd to intervene when Sardaukar came undercover in Dune..surely the Landsraad had spies there..I know its nitpicking

2017-04-17_21:17:07 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: no need to imo

2017-04-17_21:17:25 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: they all came to rampage arrakis and the harkonnen

2017-04-17_21:19:03 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The empeoror helping one house ...wouldnt that be scary for the Landsraad?

2017-04-17_21:19:31 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I thought the other major houses got united when that happened?

2017-04-17_22:37:35 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: The other major houses intervened when the Great Convention was broken (using atomics on peoples, etc) but political backstabbing and the like were perfectly acceptable. Hence why there are official "Master Assassins" positions and the like.

2017-04-17_22:38:30 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: The Sardaukar being involved in the siege of Arrakis when the Harkonnens invaded was a hush-hush thing, hence why they were in Harkonnen uniforms and the like. The interference of the Padishah Emperor was meant to be a subtle and silent play rather than a direct announcement of intent.

2017-04-17_22:40:09 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: but I believe that even if the Sardaukar were openly involved and the like, it probably would have been economic and political suicide to try and intervene against the Harkonnens and Sardaukar on Arrakis either way.

2017-04-17_22:45:10 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Duke Leto already knew that there were other houses in conspiracy with the Harkonnen. These were the Houses that were stockpiling Spice, but making any open movements would have muddied the waters for the Atreides. Other Houses who were likely not nearly as powerful would be in a similar situation.

2017-04-17_22:46:02 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: So this means that enough Houses were in cahoots with the Harkonnen to make open resistance impossible in the prelude, and the plan was in motion for many years at this point. Any hastily made counters would have been shut down thoroughly.

2017-04-17_22:47:21 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Given that, the blow by the Sardaukar and Harkonnen forces was thorough. It was a total massacre, and anyone aware of this plan would NOT want to mess with the obvious victor. House Harkonnen would have had control of Arrakis and the Spice, making them an economic fulcrum upon which the the economy of the Imperium would have hinged upon. This means the Harkonnens would have all the economic leverage due to their control of Arrakis.

2017-04-17_22:47:23 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **Musashi leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/303662760279932939/levelup.png

2017-04-17_22:47:55 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Behind the Padishah Emperor is the Imperial Sardaukar, so if they didn't make you bow economically, nothing will stop the Sardaukar to infiltrate and mess a House up.

2017-04-17_22:48:06 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: They had made a clear example out of the Atreides at this point.

2017-04-17_22:48:28 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: and that was before the Harkonnen had full control over Arrakis

2017-04-17_22:48:52 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: After having full control of Arrakis, it would seem to other Houses that the balance of economic power would be even further in the favor of the Harkonnens

2017-04-17_22:49:29 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: and this is also not counting the possibility of other Houses that were in silent alliance with the Harkonnens too.

2017-04-17_22:50:15 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: So to any House that might want to fight against this and intervene forthe sake of the Atreides, you'd have to face he Harkonnens, the Imperials Sardaukar, AND an unknown number of Great Houses that were waiting on the sidelines just in case.

2017-04-17_22:52:26 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Say what you will, but Vladimir Harkonnen was justified in being totally smug about his plan.

2017-04-17_23:05:40 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: The reasons for why the plan ultimately failed was kind of because there were a lot of coincidences and luck that happened to side with Paul.

1. The Missionaria Protectiva and the fact that he was with Jessica, and she helped him leverage the myth of the Lisan Al Gaib with the Fremen.

2. The fact that the Fremen were completely underestimated in both their fighting power and population size (Hawat threw this into Baron Harkonnen's face, Piter de Vries was twisted and didn't catch this crucial fact)

3. The fact that Paul was the Kwisatz Haderach because Jessica had made a choice out of love despite the fact that the Bene Gesserit training emphasizes NOT losing control to feelings of Love, but she did anyway.

4. Paul and Jessica managed to survive a friggin horrid sandstorm when escaping from the Harkonnens, and then untrained, managed to even find the Fremen at all and not get eaten by worms despite the lack of  desert survival training. Even the Baron was smart enough to demand the soldiers find the bodies (but was pretty sure that they couldn't survive the sandstorm in a thopter, a fair statistical assumption)

5. Paul had found out about the truth behind the Sandworm's connection to the Spice, and was able to leverage the whole "I can destroy all the Spice in the universe if you mess with me"

2017-04-17_23:06:00 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Honestly, when you look at the weak points in the plan by the Harkonnens, there was no way anyone in the universe could have accounted for these things.

2017-04-17_23:07:20 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: So tl;dr: I don't think the Landsraad would have been able to do anything about the attack on Arrakis.

2017-04-18_06:45:42 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@138005062478856192> wow..this is a great answer

2017-04-18_09:29:26 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: indeed

2017-04-18_09:37:37 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: <@138005062478856192>  what do you think would have happen, had Paul never became Muad'dib? If he had died in the desert?

In this case, Baron Harkonnen would have regain his power, and ultimately I believe he was going for the imperial throne. Do you think this is plausible, and out of Harkonnen and Corrino, who would be victorious?

2017-04-18_09:37:38 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **jacklonsohn leveled up!**

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2017-04-18_09:52:22 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Feyd-Rautha would MAYBE have married Irulan, hence access to the throne

2017-04-18_09:52:43 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: but anyway the BG already had a child from him. Most probably a girl

2017-04-18_10:05:03 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: That's possible, but I think the Baron thinks about getting the throne only for Harkonnen. iirc.

2017-04-18_10:54:41 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I have a feeling that Baron Harkonen would have been assasinated by  Feyd-rautha...just after he became emperor

2017-04-18_10:59:33 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: would have been messy

2017-04-18_11:08:43 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I think that either way the Emperor was weak politically, and he would be ousted before his death.

2017-04-18_18:58:35 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Hmmm, honestly, I'm not exactly sure. Everything else assuming Paul's ascendancy never happened is purely speculation. But I suppose I could indulge in fun what-ifs.

2017-04-18_19:01:35 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: My guess is that the primary actors would indeed be House Corrino and House Harkonnen. Assuming Paul doesn't rise again, the politics would be a battle of Economics vs Military. House Corrino's power is situated upon the Sardaukar. This is not a small hand to play. However, with the advent of the Harkonnen's rise to Spice control, Feyd Rautha would likely have succeeded in comtrolling the Imperium-important populace of Arrakis after the Baron set Rabban up for failure. Had things gone according to plan, House Harkonnen, as hated as they were by the Fremen and the other denizens of Dune, would probably have had AT BEST a tenuous control of the populace.

2017-04-18_19:02:22 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: But without the religious fervor of the Fremen whipped up by Paul, I think the inevitable Fremen revolt would have been a long time coming.

2017-04-18_19:04:36 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: There are a number of ways things could go from here as well. Maybe the Emperor might pull a similar stunt by secretly backing another unmentioned House. If he were clever, he could easily perpetuate a cycle of houses gaining and losing control of Arrakis with the Sardaukar secretly supporting the usurper. This would be similar to how the US backs rebels in the middle east and overthrows inconvenient governments. That'd be fitting considering the situation in the middle east did inspire much of the politics of Dune

2017-04-18_19:05:06 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: But of course, this is dependent on whether the other houses catch onto this scheme, there's a lot left to speculate on.

2017-04-18_19:06:30 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: House Harkonnen would probably have gained a lot of favors from the Bene Gesserit as the BG tend to want to preserve the relevant bloodlines, and so Feyd Rautha would definitely have the protection of the BG from the shadows. I would imagine that the Bene Gesserit would have Feyd marry Irulan and then consolidate the two factions into a more politically stable unit. Alliance by marriage is a powerful thing, and the Bene Gesserit would benefit from having an easier political situation to control

2017-04-20_06:29:43 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@138005062478856192> But anyone else wonder why didn;t  the Emperor Shaddam take direct control of Arrakis? It was the most important planet in the Imperium after all...

2017-04-20_06:37:42 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Would the Landsraad have acted against him if he tried?

2017-04-20_07:41:57 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: <@230009305326157825> That is my guess as well. The Landsraad could rally behind a powerful Major House, and kill the Emperor. IMO it's better to make someone else take care of it, given Shaddam's ability to decide who controls it

2017-04-20_07:42:08 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: who possesses it*

2017-04-20_07:42:23 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: and whoever has the ability to end something has absolute power over it

2017-04-20_10:15:28 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I agree with you both. There is an equilibrium between the Emperor and the Landsraad. Any shift in this status quo can trigger each side for action. With his Sardaukar, the Emperor is matched to the Landsraad in power.

2017-04-20_10:18:03 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: As it was in the past, with the king and the nobles - the nobles agree to the king's rule, because they match his power in army, money, resources etc. If the king (or emperor) wishes to gain more power, he is risking a reaction from all the nobles (or the landsraad).

2017-04-21_09:38:03 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: FH based a lot of Dune from the Middle-Age and the greek culture

2017-04-21_09:38:15 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: no wonder there are a lot of common points

2017-04-21_09:40:35 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes Faufreluches=Feudalism

2017-04-21_10:51:41 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I think the Emperor doesn't have control of Arrakis due to the Spacing Guild. That would give one person too much power over them, and I don't see them allowing that if they can help it.

2017-04-21_10:53:05 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Also, if Arrakis is by law, inaccessbile to direct imperial control, it allows a point of contention between the Lansdraad and the Thrown, something the SG can exploit whenever the need arises.

2017-04-21_10:53:49 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: This would go along with Herbert's Tripod of Control for how the empire runs.

2017-04-21_11:11:51 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I like your point

2017-04-21_11:12:00 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: we totally forgot the Spacing Guild

2017-04-21_11:13:42 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Lol thank you

2017-04-21_11:13:44 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **chopper085 leveled up!**

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2017-04-21_11:13:54 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Hazzah!

2017-04-21_11:14:32 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I'm not sure how seriously you take the prequels, but I *think* this is a plot point. Its been a while since i read them

2017-04-21_11:15:25 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: So it may be more discussed there, even if not to be taken seriously, but to see how they justify it.

2017-04-21_11:17:01 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Only read Hunters and Sandworms, haven't read the prequels yet. I admit I don't want to spend any money on it. Dunno if they talk about it

2017-04-21_11:19:16 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh just go to a library and torrent them. The jihad ones are good imo. I like the immediate prequels obly because i wanted to explore the great houses and empire more

2017-04-21_11:19:25 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Or torrent them*

2017-04-21_11:20:31 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: *shrugs shoulders* don't really want to read them now

2017-04-21_11:21:25 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Fair enough

2017-04-21_11:23:04 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: actually want or can. Haven't much free time

2017-04-21_11:23:55 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh i get it. Its hard to find time for me now too. I used to read on my lunch, I've grown lax.

2017-04-22_05:32:00 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: If the dune series have been written today by Frank Herbert how do you think it have been different do you think that you have something like Facebook or Twitter?

2017-04-22_06:27:43 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I think it might have been more detailed with the greater amount of research that Frank Herbert had available to him. I believe the story overal would have fundamentally been the same.

2017-04-22_11:52:55 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I don't think there would be any social media aspect to FH's story. Remember that the social structure was based on a feudal society, and the chronology of the story was in the FAR AWAY future, so his contemporary culture (originally and today) would not have been a part of the world building.

2017-04-22_11:55:47 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@301401211771551755> yes ofcourse..but the zeitgeist will always affect the author ....the author will be consciously and unconsciously affected by the major issues of his time...for example at the time FH wrote the first book the Cold War and nuclear annihilation was a very real fear..and we can see that in the lasgun-shield concept and the family atomics

2017-04-22_11:56:02 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: that are present in the book

2017-04-22_11:57:13 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I see. I was not aware of this, <@230009305326157825>.

2017-04-22_11:57:43 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: In that case, there might have been an influence of that sort

2017-04-22_11:59:44 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes very interesting to see how it would influence his writing...Also terms like Jihad had exotic connotations back in FH's day..but now it has altogether different connotations

2017-04-22_12:02:01 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Well, every scifi world has to take stuff from this world, this is natural. The writer takes our world, and changes it to fit the story he wants to tell.

2017-04-22_12:02:15 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: He/she of course

2017-04-23_20:07:09 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: The Jihad, particularly today has a very strong meaning

2017-04-23_20:08:15 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: However FH wanted a non-technophile universe. Without computers, no socials noetworks

2017-04-23_20:08:41 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Though, portables or mobile devices could exist, and that would make the Fremen stronger maybe.

2017-04-25_19:27:52 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well this just happened the Tleleiuxu made this

2017-04-25_19:28:04 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: http://www.theverge.com/2017/4/25/15421734/artificial-womb-fetus-biobag-uterus-lamb-sheep-birth-premie-preterm-infant

2017-04-25_19:52:36 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Mind blown

2017-04-26_07:44:45 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I saw that. Humans could be next but don't forget that we have very struct ethics law

2017-04-26_08:11:11 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes artificial axlotl tank

2017-04-26_08:43:20 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Do they reveal what the axlotl tanks are in the TH dune books?

2017-04-26_08:44:06 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes they do..but its a spoiler if you havent read the later books

2017-04-26_09:01:17 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: TH ?

2017-04-26_09:01:39 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: the

2017-04-26_09:01:43 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: ?

2017-04-26_09:02:17 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: oh

2017-04-26_09:04:03 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: FH sorry my phone is autocorrecting me all of a sudden

2017-04-26_09:05:41 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Okay. Where are you in the FH books ?

2017-04-26_09:06:10 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: because yeah they reveal what are axlotl tanks

2017-04-26_09:23:55 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I've read all of them, new and old.

2017-04-26_09:25:07 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> then you must have forgotten what they are..as the books pack in a lot of details..impossible to remember evthng

2017-04-26_09:25:37 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh i know what the tanks are.

2017-04-26_09:25:48 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I was just asking if that was a new or old concept

2017-04-26_09:26:24 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Bc i know some ppl take less stalk in aspects of the new books (which I consider canon)

2017-04-26_09:31:04 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I could go on for hours with my problems with the Prequels...some do consider them canon..thats upto the individual reader...for me the original series has more than enough stuff to keep me happy

2017-04-26_09:31:47 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The Axlotl tank concept I think was first seen in Frank Herbert;'s original series..I think its a new concept

2017-04-26_09:32:02 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: new as in he thought of it first

2017-04-26_09:32:07 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I've literally never met someone who considers any part of them canon until now.

2017-04-26_09:32:15 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I mean, they're fundamentally flawed books.

2017-04-26_09:32:18 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: It isn't Herbert.

2017-04-26_09:32:27 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: (Even though it's Herbert)

2017-04-26_09:37:14 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I've literally never met anyone else who had read any of the actual sequels before I found the reddit

2017-04-26_09:37:21 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I've read everything Dune.

2017-04-26_09:37:39 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: And I despised the prequels and "7"

2017-04-26_09:37:55 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: They're fundamentally bad. As I said.

2017-04-26_09:38:16 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I didnt like 7. But I love the jihad prequels. The immediate sequels were acceptable

2017-04-26_09:38:33 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: They're not well written, they're not in depth, they come off as a desperate attempt to cash in on the father's shadow, they're just not good.

2017-04-26_09:38:36 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Immediate prequels***

2017-04-26_09:38:45 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Brian does _not_ have an in-depth understanding of Dune.

2017-04-26_09:39:02 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Eh, the only person who did is deas

2017-04-26_09:39:03 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Deas

2017-04-26_09:39:14 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Dead god damn iy

2017-04-26_09:39:22 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I give up on typing...

2017-04-26_09:39:25 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: the characters in the prequels are as thick as cardboard cutouts...

2017-04-26_09:39:27 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Frank spent so much time and energy into research and investment into the series, Brian didn't seem to do any of that.

2017-04-26_09:39:45 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Eh, to a point.

2017-04-26_09:39:45 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Frank ate mushrooms...

2017-04-26_09:39:49 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: magic ones

2017-04-26_09:39:53 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: thats the secret

2017-04-26_09:39:57 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Some of it I can get, he was living in the shadow of the greatest science fiction / fantasy writers ever.

2017-04-26_09:40:02 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I mean mayve he did for Dune, I have doubts about his sequels

2017-04-26_09:40:04 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: That's a huge weight on you

2017-04-26_09:40:25 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: But the more down the line it goes, the more it seems like just cashing on the legacy, not honoring it

2017-04-26_09:40:39 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Creative people+Mind Expanding Substances=Magical s**t

2017-04-26_09:40:55 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: In fact, Brian's works are the sole reason I despise fan-fiction and everything of the sort.

2017-04-26_09:41:00 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Because that what they feel like.

2017-04-26_09:41:03 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Fan-fiction.

2017-04-26_09:41:23 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: fan fiction can be good also...all Twilight fan fiction is better than the original 😄

2017-04-26_09:41:25 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: They are not canon. They will not ever be. Frank died on 6, and it was a tragedy to the world of literature.

2017-04-26_09:41:40 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@230009305326157825> th tell that to 50 shades...

2017-04-26_09:41:41 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **chopper085 leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/306726521794592768/levelup.png

2017-04-26_09:41:50 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Twlight is fun to hate on, but Meyer's book "Host" was the _worst_ book I've ever seen

2017-04-26_09:41:52 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Like no joke

2017-04-26_09:41:53 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well I was born a few months after FH passed away

2017-04-26_09:41:58 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: It was ***GOD AWFUL***

2017-04-26_09:42:28 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Twilight is just "not for us". We're not the target audience. It's not good, but it's a meme to hate

2017-04-26_09:42:30 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Host.

2017-04-26_09:42:33 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Host....was so bad.

2017-04-26_09:42:40 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Truly the worst thing I've ever read.

2017-04-26_09:42:50 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I can explain in detail why I like it when I get home. I'm leaving work soon

2017-04-26_09:43:00 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I'm going to sleep in like, less than a minute

2017-04-26_09:43:05 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: It's 02:42 here

2017-04-26_09:43:12 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But the basis for why I love the jihad books has to do with my adoration of history

2017-04-26_09:43:21 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: That's fine, more power to you if you enjoy something.

2017-04-26_09:43:24 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: 0543 here

2017-04-26_09:43:27 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I won't try to take that away from you.

2017-04-26_09:43:35 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Buy feel free to comment when you awaken

2017-04-26_09:43:42 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: But they hold a black hell in my heart.

2017-04-26_09:43:48 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Bc ibwould love the discussion tbh

2017-04-26_09:44:05 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: As long as you don't insult me like they did in the subreddit at least

2017-04-26_09:44:11 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: No, I won't insult you.

2017-04-26_09:44:24 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Like they literally insulted how well read I was

2017-04-26_09:44:34 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: That's bloody rude.

2017-04-26_09:44:57 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I don't think they're well-written, structured, or even entertaining. But that's _me_

2017-04-26_09:45:06 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I'm not going to belittle you for liking something else

2017-04-26_09:45:21 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Unless it's anime 😉 But that's just a running joke of mine

2017-04-26_09:45:26 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I really don't like anime.

2017-04-26_09:45:34 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: samurai jack?

2017-04-26_09:45:41 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: That's by definition not anime

2017-04-26_09:45:45 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: ghost in the shell?

2017-04-26_09:45:56 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: It wasn't my fancy

2017-04-26_09:46:07 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Ok...there is too much bad anime out there

2017-04-26_09:46:15 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Miyazaki is also anime right?

2017-04-26_09:46:22 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: No, he too hates anime.

2017-04-26_09:46:28 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: ok

2017-04-26_09:46:42 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Though I guess in a literal term it is. As it is a japanese animation studio making animated movies / cartoons.

2017-04-26_09:47:06 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: But it's very different. I think it shares almost nothing with "anime" as people imagine it

2017-04-26_09:47:17 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I love Miyazaki.

2017-04-26_09:47:26 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I fundamentally don't like anime.

2017-04-26_09:48:12 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I don't like the visual art style, I hate the voices, I'm not a fan of TV structured stories, I don't like the ""culture"" / obsessive fans, and I don't like when people prod me to watch others because of my dislike.

2017-04-26_09:49:31 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Anyway, that aside

2017-04-26_09:49:33 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I'm off to bed o/

2017-04-26_09:50:33 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Cya in 12 hrs

2017-04-26_10:14:19 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: See i like the Jihad books as they are based on a lot of historical elements I like, Like the fall of Rome.

2017-04-26_10:14:51 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I also think its very accurate in portraying a generations long war.

2017-04-26_10:15:47 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And I think the logic result of it is the generations long prohibition on tech we see in Dune

2017-04-26_10:16:56 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: As for anime, I'm not a big fan of Samurai Jack, surprisingly

2017-04-26_12:08:23 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: <@267882472157609985>  I also like the Jihad tri.

2017-04-26_12:08:45 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I'm not alone lol

2017-04-26_12:08:52 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I like most of the BH, I honestly don't care that they ruined it.

2017-04-26_12:09:21 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Ruined it? You mean like Dune 7?

2017-04-26_12:09:21 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Did you write in Reddit under this username? I dont think so

2017-04-26_12:10:00 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: No, on Reddit im gojira085. Chopper had been taken lol

2017-04-26_12:10:44 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I see.

2017-04-26_12:11:10 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: What I meant is that I don't think badly on BH writing at all.

2017-04-26_12:11:46 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I liked the continuation of the Duniverse, that's good enough for me.

2017-04-26_12:11:52 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh, I get you

2017-04-26_12:12:27 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I was eh on the end. But i feel like TH wrote himself into a joke for an ending. So i don't view any ending as being good.

2017-04-26_12:12:54 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But i was happy to explore a greater universe.

2017-04-26_12:16:48 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Yeah, ending is tricky.

2017-04-26_12:17:10 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Yeah.

2017-04-26_18:19:09 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: <@267882472157609985> Something that I find quite supportive to the idea that BH's books aren't good, is that most people liking them just like them. Only a matter of personal or subjective appreciation. Still, that doesn't mean people who don't like it have to be all "meeeeeeh, it's bad, dont' read, oh you like it, booooo"

2017-04-26_18:20:25 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I wasn't very clear : people who like BH's books have very few arguments.

2017-04-26_18:20:32 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: most of them*

2017-04-26_18:22:05 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: <@89216075446644736> You don't have to be into anime. Tons of animated or drawn movies are good. The Iron Giant for example

2017-04-26_18:22:26 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: which I advise to watch in german or italian, subbed english of course

2017-04-26_18:37:19 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: As long as people respect that I don't like it, I have no qualms. But another big turn off is everytime I say that, _somebody_ just has to shove another my way and it's the same story I give them.

2017-04-26_18:37:26 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Iron Giant is an amazing movie though

2017-04-26_18:49:33 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Indeed

2017-04-28_10:33:24 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: What do you imagine the Sarduakar to look like? Post an image, fan created if necessary..or sketch your version of the Sardkar..

2017-04-28_10:35:16 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: For me it would be something like this

2017-04-28_10:35:26 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta:

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/307464823610933248/moe_sardaukar_1.jpg

2017-04-28_10:35:34 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: the BDSM sard 😃

2017-04-28_11:04:35 GMT | 250665644733890570 | Pipes-Many-Momes: 👺

2017-04-28_11:38:34 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I think I already saw this

2017-04-28_11:38:41 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: in a comic book

2017-05-02_09:41:59 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: So what do you all think about Messiah ? I thought it was a small book yet extremely dense and tense. The whole plot to destroy Paul, Alia's power, the Dune Tarot and all the new characters made Messiah a classic for me

2017-05-02_09:44:48 GMT | 238166179670130688 | EbonbladeofRevan: Messiah was dense and compact. I liked the closer focus on political machimations.

2017-05-02_09:45:26 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yup I feel that the Dune Tarot was deliberately introduced by the Conspirators...

2017-05-02_09:45:36 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: to muddy the waters for Paul and Alia

2017-05-02_09:46:11 GMT | 238166179670130688 | EbonbladeofRevan: It was ingenious.

2017-05-02_09:48:48 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Herbert took a massive risk with Messiah...and I feel that the "Matrix" took inspiration from Paul's story arc

2017-05-02_09:49:04 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Neo story arc is very similar to Paul story arc

2017-05-02_09:49:16 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: They both go blind etc..

2017-05-02_09:49:20 GMT | 238166179670130688 | EbonbladeofRevan: Accepting destiny and such?

2017-05-02_09:50:05 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yup both had visions of the fututre, both tried to save the woman they loved ultimately to lose her, both were messiahs,

2017-05-02_09:51:46 GMT | 238166179670130688 | EbonbladeofRevan: Neo jut didn't have time to stick around long enough to become a profit.

2017-05-02_09:52:23 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: he became a prophet post his death just like Paul

2017-05-02_09:52:52 GMT | 238166179670130688 | EbonbladeofRevan: Prophet. I can't type.

2017-05-02_11:47:48 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Matrix is a lot inspired by Dune and by Ghost in the shell

2017-05-02_11:48:06 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: probably some other references that I didn't catch. Maybe the cave allegory from Plato

2017-05-05_13:30:42 GMT | 307537896301133834 | Novice Allison: I loved Messiah. It really humanized Paul and gave us a chance to experience his pain. I think that one more than Dune really turned me into a fan of Paul in all his glory good and bad. Let's not forget this dude started a war, jihad, that in turn led to the murder of millions just because he wanted to satisfy his sense of kanly.

2017-05-05_18:13:18 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: murder ... of BILLIONS

2017-05-05_20:57:18 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@307537896301133834>  ... That's an interesting interpretation...I personally feel that the Jihad was the least destructive among more destructive futures that Paul foresaw and that's why he walked that path

2017-05-05_21:18:03 GMT | 307537896301133834 | Novice Allison: <@230009305326157825> go back and check it out. He knew that getting revenge for his father's murder would cause the jihad. He did it anyway. He didn't have to take up the role of Muad'ib. He knew if he didn't there would be no jihad. He knew if he didn't take the role he wouldn't be able to avenge his father. He took it. But that was part of his ultimate humanity. Like a true prophet. He's one of us and above us.

2017-05-05_21:26:36 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@307537896301133834> The Missionaria Protectiva..created superstitions among the Fremen of a coming leader who will lead them to glory..by their genetic manipulation they unintentionally created Paul... my interpretation is that the combination of genetics, spice and external pressures(oppression of fremen by harkonnens, etc..) meant that a jihad was ineveitable

2017-05-05_21:27:08 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: It just required a spark to set it off...

2017-05-05_21:28:21 GMT | 307537896301133834 | Novice Allison: <@230009305326157825> It just required a spark to set it off... Exactly!!! And that spark was his desire for revenge. He realizes it later. Imagine having something like that weigh on your shoulders. Even if you are a god, that would still be heavy.

2017-05-05_21:34:19 GMT | 297946912685031424 | anothernewone2: I think Paul decided that the Jihad was inevitable in the period leading up to his son dying,  then by the time his son died he came to except the cruelty of fate.    I think that it was Paul's prescience that made the jihad inevitable, if he wasn't forced to look to the future it would have been possible to change it.  Once he had participated in the fremen orgy he might have infected them with the jihad he foresaw.    This is all just conjecture on my part.

2017-05-05_21:35:25 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The fremen had faced oppression for millenia...("They denied us the Hajj..etc... )They were an oppressed race..and he quite probably infected them in the orgy.. because he was intoxicated by the drug and had lesser self control

2017-05-05_23:50:12 GMT | 297946912685031424 | anothernewone2: I can't figure out how they managed the Jihad though, was it just the fremen going from planet to planet slaughter people?  A guild steersman could have gone to the landsraad and hid them while they obliterated paul the atreides with atomics, and then there'd be no one left to destroy the spice.

2017-05-05_23:51:03 GMT | 238166179670130688 | EbonbladeofRevan: The moment they tried to bombard Arrakis, the Fremen would have destroyed the Spice.

2017-05-05_23:51:04 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **EbonbladeofRevan leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/310201765570150400/levelup.png

2017-05-05_23:56:28 GMT | 297946912685031424 | anothernewone2: yeah the guild would never go for that

2017-05-05_23:57:41 GMT | 238166179670130688 | EbonbladeofRevan: Literally Paul is holding a gun to the galaxy's head, and the Guild surmised that they could maybe resist, but it would be easier to just deal with a regime change.

2017-05-05_23:58:20 GMT | 238166179670130688 | EbonbladeofRevan: The Jihad is because I get the feeling they honestly don't care who dies, as long as they get paid.

2017-05-06_08:05:35 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: <@297946912685031424> the Guild couldn't care less what is going on in other planets. All they care about is getting the spice they need, and separating rival parties on their ships so they won't damage their ships.

2017-05-08_16:11:21 GMT | 307537896301133834 | Novice Allison: Would not the guild have literally died without the spice supply? At a certain point the user becomes addicted to the point of needing it to live.

2017-05-08_16:17:07 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@307537896301133834> yes i am assuming the higher stage navigaotrs who are incharge are most mutated..and constantly need spice

2017-05-11_10:25:50 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: BTW who do you think printed out the Dune tarot..the Ixians or the Bene Tleliax

2017-05-11_10:25:53 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: ?

2017-05-11_10:32:08 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Could be no one. Imagine a new religion with a living god able of prescience, an ancient game about destiny and fate... emulation from people could make it grow, it woudl spread exponentially very quickly.

2017-05-11_19:49:20 GMT | 297946912685031424 | anothernewone2: It doesn't seem technological enough for the Ixians.   All the conspirator groups probably supported the tarot.

2017-05-12_08:50:06 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: i loved the tlelixu end moves...if it weren't for Leto II god Emperor's vision ....things would have turned out pretty different...the Hayt thing was a superb misdirection

2017-05-13_14:46:35 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta:

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/312963847067664385/oregon_dune.jpg

2017-05-13_14:47:07 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: ^^This photo was taken in Oregon...the plave where F.Herbert got inspired to write Dune

2017-05-13_14:54:33 GMT | 311842168069423104 | levi_liet: Awesome <@230009305326157825> !! Made my day!

2017-05-13_14:54:34 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **levi_liet leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/312965856881803264/levelup.png

2017-05-14_00:03:12 GMT | 297946912685031424 | anothernewone2: What was the hayt thing?  That he would love Alia and work against her?

2017-05-14_10:32:38 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@!297946912685031424> Well the Hayt thing...it was expectd that he would assasinate Paul..but the real purpose here was to see if gholas could retain original memories...the Tlelixu basically experimented on one of the most important live missions ever

2017-05-14_12:38:40 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Well why didn't the Tleilaxu try to retain a ghola's memories by themselves, without risking the plot to assassinate Muad'dib? Could they have known the way to retain them at all?

2017-05-14_12:47:14 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: sorry retain is wrong word..i meant reawaken

2017-05-14_12:47:50 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: for the idaho ghola...they would need Paul to reawaken his memories...no other lever would be strong enough

2017-05-14_16:19:39 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: They did had a theory of how it would go

2017-05-14_16:20:45 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: They just needed to experiment it. They could have taken a farmer and his dead son, make the ghola of the son train to assassinate his father to re-awaken his memories. OF COURSE. But it wasn't worth it

2017-05-14_16:21:26 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Better try to do it in a situation where you estimate your success to happen in 100% of the possible scenarios

2017-05-14_16:21:36 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: and to get 51% of the CHOAM

2017-05-14_16:22:41 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: But don't the Tleilexu have gholas to spare?

2017-05-14_16:22:51 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: (Sorry if that sounds inhumane)

2017-05-14_16:23:09 GMT | 250665644733890570 | Pipes-Many-Momes: 👀

2017-05-14_16:24:39 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I guess they do

2017-05-14_16:25:01 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: but they seem very greedy and act toward money before all

2017-05-14_16:25:12 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: They make twisted mentats they sell at a high price

2017-05-14_16:25:48 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: they don't seem to do anything for nothing. Unlike Ixians who could do some research and "waste" money, Tleilaxu have the mentality of bazar

2017-05-14_16:35:02 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: And there is something in The Tleliuxu mentality where they have to give the victim a chance to escape..

2017-05-14_16:35:22 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: no matter how contrived the plot ..the victim must have that escape route..its in their religion

2017-05-14_16:35:26 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: or something

2017-05-14_16:40:55 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I see it as being D-bag, not as a positive thing.

2017-05-14_16:45:58 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: D-bag ?

2017-05-14_16:52:30 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Douchebag

2017-05-14_16:52:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: t!urban douchebag

2017-05-14_16:52:41 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki:

2017-05-14_16:52:55 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: lol..

2017-05-14_16:53:20 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: t!urban douchebag

2017-05-14_16:53:21 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki:

2017-05-14_16:53:31 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: hmm....better now

2017-05-14_16:53:51 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I imagine a Tleilaxu master watching a victim, and he and his friends are betting if he'll die or not, and the guy says "he CAN get away, he HAS a way out"

2017-05-14_16:55:12 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: "All he has to do is find it"

2017-05-14_16:55:33 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: The guy is literally fighting for his life..

2017-05-14_17:54:20 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The tleliuxu U have a very strange sense of ethics and Justice

2017-05-14_18:44:52 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Ah I see what you mean now. Never saw the douchebag being written D-bag

2017-05-14_18:45:09 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Quite cruel of the Tleilaxu method from our perspective

2017-05-14_18:47:24 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well The Tlelixu created what was demanded of them..it was cruel of the God Emperor..to keep ordering more Gholas..he was literally their only customer..

2017-05-14_18:48:42 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Are you sure he was their only customer? Could they have sustained it economically for all these years?

2017-05-14_18:50:10 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: He paid them massive amounts in terms of spice

2017-05-14_18:50:38 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: and in the later years..due to human evolution ...IDaho reflexes were really slow

2017-05-14_18:50:45 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: he was nearly useless as a warrior

2017-05-14_18:50:58 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: a small fortune for every Idaho

2017-05-14_19:44:57 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: The God Emperor sustained the Tleilaxu merely for his Duncan gholas? I don't know who's worse morally, him or the Tleilaxu.

2017-05-14_19:46:02 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes F.Herbert does a great job in depicting the gholas' mental unrest at being brought to life again and again

2017-05-14_19:46:18 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: a cursed life for the poor gholas

2017-05-14_19:46:31 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: they are literally anachronisms

2017-05-14_19:50:08 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: It's really not fair to be a ghola.

2017-05-14_21:59:39 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: What was the Ixian's plan with Hwi Noree? It always struck me as strange that they invented this amazing nospace technology and used it to secretly create a really hot girl that would be 100% loyal to their enemy, in the hopes that maybe she'd cause Leto to act emotionally. Was there more it than that?

2017-05-15_08:12:14 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@288234041025495041> Good question..yes I have thought about that as well...These are some of the reasons I think they chose to go with Noree....First;y, traditional assasination attempts etc, will 100 percent fail against the God Emperor...that means no assasins with lasguns etc,,,.... the God Emperor's prescience is unparalleld....Secondly, Muad-dib had only one weakeness -Chani, the conspirators knew it had to be the lynchpin of their efforts to bring down Muaddib...unfortunately, no such weakness existed for the God Emp... so they had to create one...the only person he was close to barring immediate family..was Malky..so any woman had to be created from that base template...of malky...would have the greatest chance of success....some of their mentats might have predicted that Idaho ghola would probably fall for Noree as well..thus further distracting the God Emperor.... I think their end game was to hope that Noree would distract the God Emp...sufficinetly so that he let go of the iron grip on the Imperium......these are just my observations

2017-05-15_08:17:26 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: And after the death of Noree..the Tlelixu could offer a ghola with memories intact..and try to strike a bargain with the God Empeor

2017-05-15_21:28:27 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: That's a good point about the parallels with Muad'dib, but it always struck me as a bit lackluster of a plan. In fact there were a lot of plot lines in the book I expected to have a bigger payoff, but then everything just sort of happened the way it was planned. When Leto just sort of died at the end, at first I was like "what? He really didn't see that coming? He literally just ignored all the warning signs and walked into a death trap!"

But then  a while after reading the book I began to realise that Leto was basically trying to be assassinated. His Golden path required an Atreides who was immune to oracles, and had the moral integrity to stand against a God. His own assassinatoin was the litmus test for the success of that plan. That's why he always got angry at Moneo, because no matter how much Leto goaded and taunted him, Moneo remained loyal, making him a failure.

2017-05-15_23:35:09 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: <@288234041025495041> has a good point regarding Leto II actively trying to get himself assassinated. Leto's death was part of the Golden Path, and it needed to happen. It was planned to happen eventally from the very start of Leto's ascendancy to the throne of Emperor.

As for what the deal with Hwi Noree and the Ixian's plans with her? She was meant to be a way for the Ixians to understand why the hell Leto II had such leniency towards them. My personal interpretation was that Ixians were trying to figture out what Leto II's limits were both psychologically, prescience-ly, and physically. What was Leto II willing to put up with? What would push him to the brink? What would be the limits that the Ixians could dance before Leto II gets fed up with them and annihilates them? These are all imporant questions to ask and are useful whenever dealing with the God Emperor.

Thus, they originally sent Malky to basically be the Lucifer to Leto's God. The purely evil and horrible person that would poke holes into Leto's vision of divinity and pull the curtain what what the Ixians thought was Leto's ernest belief that he was truly divine. This required an elaborate game of psychological warfare, and Malky was meant to make Leto realize he wasn't truly a God. You may also wish to recall the fact that (I think the Tleilaxu) had said "A Kwisatz Haderach will die before they become their own antithesis" and that was what Malky was for. Unfortunately, the Ixians didn't realize that Leto didn't actually believe his own hype. Thus, Malky failed in his game with Leto II.

2017-05-15_23:35:16 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: When Siona took the Stolen Journals, she had learned that Leto II was able to feel love. In it was a poem he had written to mourn Ghanima's death, and you have to remember that the idea of falling into love has long since been considered a horrifying and debilitating weakness (especially among the Bene Gesserit, where Jessica's love for her Duke was the spark that caused Muad'dib's Jihad AND the God Emperor's Tyrrany setting the BG plan awry and usurping their breeding program). The fact that Leto II could feel love was revolutionary, and the Ixians realizing that Leto II could feel love in the first place, created Hwi Noree to probe Leto's grander design.

Honestly, Hwi Noree was a perfect weapon to use against Leto because it targeted Leto's fatal weakness of being denied the emotional intimacy he had forsaken. They used Malky as the base for Hwi since Malky was the most genetically successful of the Ixian ambassadors, and Hwi's honesty and genuine-ness was a complete break from the usual dark scheming of the other factions in the universe at the time that it did in fact take Leto completely off guard. He knew the trap, but walked into it anyway because the power of his love for Hwi dictated it. A lot of God Emperor of Dune had Leto struggle with his feelings for Hwi and the conflict between his love for her and his duty to the Golden Path for humanity.

2017-05-15_23:36:14 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: If you wanted to be particularly cheesey, you could make a pretty sound argument that this is Frank Herbert's way of portraying the power of love as being truly superior to anything else in the universe.

2017-05-16_00:09:14 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: <@138005062478856192>  the Ixians can't have based their plan on the Stolen journals though, right? That would mean they created Hwi Noree after Siona stole the journals, and unless Siona is way older than I thougt, that doesn't seem possible. Did they come to the conclusion that Leto was susceptible to love independently?

2017-05-16_00:10:25 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I would imagine so. If I recall correctly, Malky had deduced a few things regarding Leto II's purpose and hints towards an aspect of Leto II's personality that wasn't hinged upon his godhead

2017-05-16_00:11:13 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Hwi Noree's interview with the Ixian authority before being appointed as the official Ixian ambassador hints to that

2017-05-16_00:11:47 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I think more than anything, the Stolen Journals (if the Ixians had gotten a hold of them) merely confirmed their suspicions that Leto II had feelings besides narcissism and his pride over his divinity

2017-05-16_00:12:30 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I only read the book once, but that's my take on it. I still need to read it a few more times to really grasp the nuances of the book hahaha

2017-05-16_00:13:01 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I read it in one long night, so apologies if I don't recall everything right

2017-05-16_00:13:03 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: -_-

2017-05-16_00:53:58 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: The stolen journals were another plotline that didn't seem to go anywhere. The big revelation was already known by the Ixians, so at least for the story in God Emperor, they didn't really have much of an impact.

While God Emperor has been the most fun to theorise about, I find the story itself to be a little lackluster compared to the previous books. I think it has to do with the fact that it was written from the perspective of a guy who's basically omniscient, so there really isn't any room for shocking revelations and twists. Even the one thing Leto couldn't know about (Siona's assassination attempt), the fact that he was essentially allowing it to happen even made it a little anticlimactic.

2017-05-16_00:53:59 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **splorg leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/313841479774896128/levelup.png

2017-05-16_00:58:40 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I feel as though the Stolen Journals were more of a set-up to the backdrop in Heretics and Chapterhouse, but I can see how it's unappealing to read a story from the perspective of a nigh-omniscient and powerful being. I feel like God Emperor of Dune's strength lies not in the intrigue, but rather the emotional aspect of Leto's character. I really enjoyed Leto's interaction with Hwi and Malky a lot.

2017-05-16_01:00:24 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: While I did love Malky's character a lot and wanted more scenes with him, I felt like the reason Malky was intriguing to me was because of the mystery and build-up towards about him. I feel this sorta describes a lot of GEoD.

2017-05-16_01:01:23 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: GEoD's narrative is rather muted compared to Dune, Dune Messiah, and Children of Dune in terms of presentation, but I don't think that it's story was lackluster. Just less about grand struggle and more about emotional struggle.

2017-05-16_01:03:57 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Yeah I agree. I'm not saying it's a bad book at all, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I loved the way it handled the battle between man and worm within Leto, and his conversations with Moneo were my favrourite. I just don't think it had the narrative beats that made the previous books so enthralling

2017-05-16_01:04:21 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: That I can definitely agree with.

2017-05-16_01:04:57 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I mean, there's a difference between a story about Paul Atreides getting revenge on his fallen Noble House and ascending to the throne of Galactic Emperor and Leto II having emotional issues being a giant worm-man.

2017-05-16_01:05:31 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: I mean "Stop trying to pull me into the background once more, sister" literally sent shivers down my spine

2017-05-16_01:06:25 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I'm not going to lie, Paul's last speech in the Children of Dune miniseries was executed brillianly.

2017-05-16_01:06:27 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: It still gets to me

2017-05-16_01:07:08 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Really I think a lot of it comes down to the lack of Paul. He was such an amazing character

2017-05-16_01:07:55 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Paul is my favorite character.

2017-05-16_01:09:23 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I am rather fond of the others, but I think Paul is what really got me into Dune in the first place. His story arc was so well executed and just so well constructed

2017-05-16_01:09:33 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Absolutely

2017-05-16_01:09:57 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: His rise, fall, and legacy was meteoric

2017-05-16_01:10:49 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Oh man, when he goes blind and starts strutting along like it's nothing

2017-05-16_01:10:55 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: so badass

2017-05-16_01:11:00 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: "He's blind but he still sees!"

2017-05-16_01:11:04 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Oh my god that was wicked awesome

2017-05-16_01:11:53 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: I miss Paul. I'm reading Heretics now and it's taking a while to warm to the characters

2017-05-16_01:12:02 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Sheeana is growing on me but she's no Paul

2017-05-16_01:12:18 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Yeah, the lack of Paul is hard to get over

2017-05-16_01:12:32 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Which is a testament to how great a character he is

2017-05-16_01:12:42 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: It really is.

2017-05-16_01:12:59 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I mean, I liked the other books without Paul, but Paul just made the series click for me

2017-05-16_01:15:05 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: <@288234041025495041> I'm glad we have similar sentiments about this

2017-05-16_01:15:46 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Same. I'm glad I was invited to this discord, I've been wanting to vent about GEoD since I finished it weeks ago

2017-05-16_01:19:10 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Haha, I felt the same way when I joined this Discord

2017-05-16_01:19:16 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: well, more when I finished Chapterhouse

2017-05-16_01:19:28 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I basically tore through GEoD, Heretics, and Chapterhouse in the course of 4 nights

2017-05-16_01:19:41 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: and I was all "DAMN IT I NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS"

2017-05-16_01:20:13 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Wow, that's crazy! It took me a few weeks to get through just God Emperor

2017-05-16_01:20:33 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: And Heretics is taking forever, I have time for one chapter a night if I'm lucky

2017-05-16_01:21:05 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I have the unfortunate habit of being unable to stop binging

2017-05-16_01:22:40 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: I binged the heck out of Children of Dune over Christmas

2017-05-16_01:22:58 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Ahahaha

2017-05-16_01:23:06 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Children of Dune was great

2017-05-16_01:29:37 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: It still cracks me up imagining Paul pretending to be someone else, going around saying "hey everyone, that Paul guy was pretty great, you should do what he says"

2017-05-16_01:29:54 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Ahahaha

2017-05-16_01:30:19 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: "Hey guys, maybe stop being total dicks in Paul's name? Hmmm?"

2017-05-16_06:41:08 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I recently watched a bit of Children of Dune...its not bad but I had a problem with it---Alia, Ghanima and Leto II were too attractive..it was like watching Abercombie and Fitch models playing the characters

2017-05-16_06:41:20 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta:

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/313928894048763904/abcombie.jpg

2017-05-16_06:41:57 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: I was really disappointed when the sandtrout only covered part of one arm

2017-05-16_06:43:39 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: they were too afraid to make it look gross  i suppose...the "you can only put attractive things on TV syndrome"

2017-05-16_06:45:08 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Yeah its a shame. other than that though I really enjoyed it

2017-05-16_06:46:04 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yeah and the Baron-and Alia possession scenes were cringey

2017-05-16_06:46:44 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Haha yeah they totally missed the mark on the Baron

2017-05-16_06:46:54 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: He was way too fancy

2017-05-16_06:47:19 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yeah... too foppish

2017-05-16_06:47:39 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: That's the perfect word to describe it

2017-05-16_06:47:56 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Maybe we're just used to Lynch's gross version

2017-05-16_06:48:48 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: lynch was being gross for the sake of being gross..add cats into the already weird mix and you have the old dune movie... 😃

2017-05-16_06:50:05 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Yeah now that I think about it, I prefer foppish Harkonnen to the Lynch flying-around-like-a-maniac version

2017-05-16_06:51:33 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The Baron atleast my understanding of him was a menacing character.. he should be more like Tywin Lannister in gameofThrones..none of the on-screen Baron's convey the sense of menace

2017-05-16_06:51:46 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: I totally agree

2017-05-16_06:52:09 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: My ideal Baron would be Bill Nighy in a fat suit

2017-05-16_06:53:17 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yup he could pull it off

2017-05-16_07:40:47 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Damn that Lynch Baron seems to be hated

2017-05-16_07:41:16 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: IMO this is what makes his character great. Tons of people were disgusted by *that man*

2017-05-16_07:42:19 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: and a good Dune movie/TV show would need to be rated R

2017-05-16_07:46:10 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: thebook baron would be disgusted by lynch baron 😃

2017-05-16_07:47:11 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: But I do agree the purulent buttons he had can be *taken off*

2017-05-16_07:53:51 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Though, if you want to translate how powerful and how twisted the Baron is, that's a big deal

2017-05-16_07:54:02 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Too foppish ? He isn't that vain

2017-05-16_07:54:29 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Sick ? He should be wealthy (despite his mass)

2017-05-16_07:55:01 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: the point is he shouldnt seem caricaturish

2017-05-16_07:55:24 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Evilish ? Seriously, he is indeed a villain, but deserved to be more than just an archetype or caricaturish as you said. He has plots for his family

2017-05-16_07:55:25 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: its tempting to overplay certain aspects of his persoanlity

2017-05-16_07:56:04 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: is damn clever but has flaws. Show that equally, make an interesting villain

2017-05-16_07:56:28 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Indeed ! And this is what  D. Villeneuve needs to do

2017-05-16_08:06:02 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: the reason for this is that thanks to Star Trek and Star Wars..which were massive hits..all directors feel that you need exaggerated villains and campy characters

2017-05-16_08:06:23 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: in all sci-fi

2017-05-16_08:07:17 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: and the whole Feyd trying to overthrow the Baron needs to be shown as well....

2017-05-16_08:22:01 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: indeed

2017-05-16_08:22:21 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: and how Thufir tries besides all to kill Feyd with the slave in the arena

2017-05-16_08:22:29 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yup

2017-05-16_08:35:11 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: there is literally nothing campy in the whole of Dune

2017-05-16_08:47:01 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@230009305326157825>  see I kinda disagree. The baron is almost the exact definition of camp

2017-05-16_08:47:48 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: the book baron was meant to be taken seriously...he was a very serious adversary

2017-05-16_08:48:15 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: He can be cunning and smart and all That, no problem, but at the end of the day Frank Herbert did everything he could to make him the most hate worthy character for the time the book was written

2017-05-16_08:49:13 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Yeah, he's a serious enemy who can't get around on his own, is seemingly perverted just because he can, and is decadent beyond all reason

2017-05-16_08:49:21 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Gotta agree with chopper on this one. the Baron was kind of ridiculously cliche evil

2017-05-16_08:49:22 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **splorg leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/313961113949831168/levelup.png

2017-05-16_08:49:41 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Add in the homosexuality and you have the exact image of the worst thing possible in 1960s USA

2017-05-16_08:50:22 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Also, the baron has always been an inside joke between my friends and I since i read dune and read to them all his silly scenes

2017-05-16_08:50:56 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: I don't know if that makes him camp though. Camp wasn't supposed to be taken seriously even in it's time. I think the writing of the Baron's character was a little heavy-handed

2017-05-16_08:51:20 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I think he's a character that can be taken seriously or not

2017-05-16_08:51:29 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: He's unique in that regard.

2017-05-16_08:52:05 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But god "Drug him well, I don't feel like wrestling" is still one of the silliest lines in the book

2017-05-16_08:52:59 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes the old homosexual=forced sex false equivalence

2017-05-16_08:53:10 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Because when you visualize the baron he is obviously large enough that his genitals are pribably exceedingly hard to get to. So ask yourselves, if this person is drugged what exactly can he do for the baron?

2017-05-16_08:53:22 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: lol

2017-05-16_08:53:32 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: You're laughing but I'm serious

2017-05-16_08:53:41 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: ur putting distrubing images in my head 😃

2017-05-16_08:54:18 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And then when he "returns" in children of Dune his agreement with Alia is that he gets to take her place when she's with Idaho. Again, please take some time to think on that

2017-05-16_09:01:05 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Herbert did have some... weird ideas about sexuality that's for sure

2017-05-16_09:02:50 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: It was funny seeing Duncan Idaho have staunchly conservative views on lesbians, in a universe where everyone is super-intelligent and logical

2017-05-16_09:06:21 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@288234041025495041> idt he necessarily had odd ideas on sexuality, outside the baron. I think in most cases for FH just  knew that human society will be vastly different in 20,000 years

2017-05-16_09:06:43 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Has anyone here ever read any of Robert Heinlein's work?

2017-05-16_09:08:03 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: i have watched Starship Troopers the movie

2017-05-16_09:08:25 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: That doesn't count

2017-05-16_09:08:58 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Bc it's nothing like the book and is very anti a lot of what the book stood for bc the director was a Euro-Puss

2017-05-16_09:09:16 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: lol---it has Densie Richards

2017-05-16_09:09:24 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: thats a plus point in my book 😃

2017-05-16_09:09:33 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: (No offense to our European members here. The director just pissed me off by some of his comments)

2017-05-16_09:10:17 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But either way Heinlein has a lot of stories that take place mad into the future and he deal a lot with how a society's views of sexuality change

2017-05-16_09:12:08 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: For example in one people are basically immortal and you'll have a person dating a family member who is number 10-30 generations younger than them.  It's technically incest but the two individuals are so far a part genetically duebto being so many generations removed that it isn't frowned upon.

2017-05-16_09:16:49 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: ok thats iteresting

2017-05-16_09:17:36 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Yeah so when FH does stuff similar thats how i read it

2017-05-16_09:18:58 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: We can enjoy the books on their own merit, but unfortunately Herbert was quite a homophobe. His son was very pro gay-rights, and it strained their relationship

2017-05-16_09:20:27 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> did you dislike the Starship Troopers directors for his anti-trump stance?

2017-05-16_09:22:36 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: well if you read JUng, Freud and then read Dune....it will be a whole new book for you..the amount of symbloism is extarordinary

2017-05-16_09:24:29 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: to put it crudely--the God Emperor is one big sentitnet dick

2017-05-16_09:24:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: sorry God Empeoror fans

2017-05-16_09:25:39 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@288234041025495041> oh I didn't know about that aspect of FH and BH's relationship

Also, I wasn't aware of his views on our election and I really don't tale a foreigner's views of my country seriously, as I'm sure is the same for everyone here

2017-05-16_09:25:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: And Siqnoq is basically literary dick-worship

2017-05-16_09:26:26 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Lol dborta, I prefer the view of Dune from a historic sense as that's my philosophical foundation lol

2017-05-16_13:51:32 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: <@230009305326157825> I would say that my issue with Starship Troopers movie director is that he didn't even read the book. He hated the entire premise and just had someone give him the brief synopsis. So instead of trying to understand what he was adapting, he just made the whole movie a joke on itself.

Honestly, while I don't mind the movie itself that much, I dislike that toxic attitude towards creative work.

2017-05-16_13:53:16 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: While I don't necessarily agree with Heinlein's ideas, I think it's rude to just disrespect the spirit of a work like that. If Villaneuve hated Dune and made his movie a scathing satire of it's ideas, I imagine many of us would not be thrilled.

2017-05-16_13:59:57 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well I never read the book so I that doesn't affect me I like the movie because it was pretty Gori and I like Gori movies

2017-05-16_14:00:09 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Gory

2017-05-16_14:00:29 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: And it had some really funny parts to it so I suppose it was okay for people who had not read the book

2017-05-16_14:00:49 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Of course I would really hate it if somebody made a movie on dual without reading the book

2017-05-16_14:00:53 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Dune

2017-05-16_14:01:07 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: The book is a must. Especially if you're into political philosophy

2017-05-16_14:02:17 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Like most of the book actually takes place in classrooms and in discussions. It's big point is what Civic Virtue is, and what is Duty. Some very good arguments to be had there

2017-05-16_14:03:42 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I think the director had a choice he could either go with political philosophy or put in a shower scene in the movie

2017-05-16_14:03:59 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Surprisingly he chose the shower scene and Denise Richards

2017-05-16_14:04:53 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <:baron2:304498979905863680>

2017-05-16_14:05:21 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: No, he didn't have a choice. He didn't even read the book!

2017-05-16_14:05:55 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I meant voice in the sense that he after knowing about the synopsis could have read the book and incorporated in the movie

2017-05-16_14:06:01 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Choice

2017-05-16_14:13:11 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: He did to a point.

2017-05-16_14:14:19 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Like certain conversations are in the book "what would the city fathers of Hiroshima say?" "They can't say anything, they're dead" what he did was take the original meanings of the conversations and twisted them to sound fascist.

2017-05-16_14:14:46 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And the book is very small letter republican

2017-05-16_15:29:57 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Hmm....the movie was a little too anti-fascism... if u know what i mean

2017-05-16_15:34:31 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: i meant there is no subtlety

2017-05-16_15:40:33 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Well it was anti fascist. But it did this by exageratting many elements from the original source

2017-05-16_17:55:58 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I felt it was exaggerated to the point of making it a strawman argument.

2017-05-16_17:56:56 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Again, I'm not saying that I agree with the ideas in Starship Troopers. While it had a pro-military bent that was NOT SUBTLE at all that I dislike, I did think the book wasn't a screeching endorsement of a facist utopia that Paul Verhoeven claims it was.

2017-05-16_18:01:43 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Maybe it's just me, but I feel an adaptation of something into another medium should be done with respect towards the spirit of the original source material, not with contempt.

2017-05-16_18:03:32 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: A better example of a deconstruction of the ideas in Starship Trooper's uber pro-military stance would be "The Forever War" which takes the same premise of power-armored soldiers fighting aliens, but turns it on it's head. It was written by a Vietnam veteran and basically took Heinlein's premise and showed a less glamourous and mentally exhausting aspect of military life on the battlefield. It came out a year after Starship Troopers, but it was a teardown of a lot of what Heinlein tried to say.

2017-05-16_18:03:42 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Yet despite that, Heinlein loved the book and said it was one of the best he's read.

2017-05-16_18:04:04 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: That, I feel, is a more constructive and less toxic way to parody or make commentary on someone's works as presented in fiction.

2017-05-16_18:04:05 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **Musashi leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/314100713292562442/levelup.png

2017-05-16_18:04:35 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: There's still respect for the premise, there's still respect between the creators, and ultimately that's more conducive to meaningful dialogue than just "this is facist utopian glorification"

2017-05-16_18:04:49 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Again, I like Verhoeven's work and satire, I just didn't like his attitude with Starship Troopers

2017-05-16_18:09:00 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I have strong feelings about creative decorum.

2017-05-16_18:09:07 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: anyways, mini-ramble over lol

2017-05-16_20:34:13 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: ""[17:29] dborta: Hmm....the movie was a little too anti-fascism... if u know what i mean

[17:34] dborta: i meant there is no subtlety"""

2017-05-16_20:34:51 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Actually, when the movie was released, the vast majority of people did not understand the anti-fascist message

2017-05-16_20:35:03 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: and strongly disliked the movie

2017-05-16_20:36:04 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I also have to say that even if Verhoeven was the director, do not forget that the script's writer was Edward Neumeier.

2017-05-16_20:38:30 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Also, what do you mean by euro-puss ? When looking for this on the web, it only showed some russian websites and porn ones

2017-05-16_20:46:07 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But the point of starship troopers isn't militarism

2017-05-16_20:46:31 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: It's main idea is what are the duties of a citizen?

2017-05-16_20:49:00 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: and what do you mean by Euro-puss ? Also, since I haven't read the book from Heinlein, I cannot confirm nor infirm the point of starship troopers

2017-05-16_20:51:58 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: The stereotypical view of a european

2017-05-16_20:52:04 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Snobbish

2017-05-16_20:52:10 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Aristocratic

2017-05-16_20:52:20 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Okay

2017-05-16_20:52:32 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Artistic to the point of satire

2017-05-16_20:53:14 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I mean it as a joke and I'm sorry if I insulted you. I don't actually believe it as such

2017-05-16_20:54:13 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Do you think I feel insulted ? I do not see where I sounded like that. I was just unaware of the meaning of the expression

2017-05-16_20:59:45 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Well I have no real way to know

2017-05-16_20:59:53 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Tone is rather lacking in text

2017-05-16_21:00:34 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Hahaha, that doesn't prevent tons of people to judge the tone of a text comment on Twitter

2017-05-16_21:01:52 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Yet I kinda see why this expression exists. The Old Continent, as we like to call ourselves, is full of pride and tends to anobliate itself to oblivion

2017-05-16_21:32:40 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Don't even get Britain started on the various differences between British English and American English

2017-05-16_21:47:48 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Or the differences in American English to American english

2017-05-16_22:06:14 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Ye Olde Continente

2017-05-16_22:47:35 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I hope I don't start a war

2017-05-17_05:37:06 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@174539900102639617> lol... doing a google search on Euro-Puss will return porn 😃 most of the time....

2017-05-17_08:08:38 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well Europeans are stereotyped as being elitist and snobbish..another common stereotype is this -

2017-05-17_08:08:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydgMFY9Y2xA

2017-05-17_08:24:15 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Hahahahahaha nice one !

2017-05-17_08:24:45 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: And 11 000 americans voted for the dead gorilla Harambe last US election.

2017-05-17_08:26:50 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: voted for harambe in online poll??

2017-05-17_08:42:01 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@138005062478856192> The Forever War is a great book..one of my alltime favourites

2017-05-17_08:44:29 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Sarcasm and satire is hard to explain...I mean its pretty common for people to not "get it".... like a ridiculous number of people think that Animal Farm by Orwell is a children's story...

2017-05-17_09:32:44 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Animal Farm is a great book. I read it a few years ago.

2017-05-17_09:33:02 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: It's not so subtle I think.

2017-05-17_10:03:57 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@230009305326157825> no lol. They actually cast a ballot in the national election for harambe. I'm not sure of you guys can, But we can write in candidates if we don't like the ones submitted

2017-05-17_10:04:20 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I often write my own name in lol. It's how I got a position on my election board

2017-05-17_10:04:34 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Oh..wow..that is not allowd in India...

2017-05-17_10:04:57 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Really? I'm quote surprised as you are notorious for your number of parties

2017-05-17_10:05:08 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: You as in India and not negatively

2017-05-17_10:05:15 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The red tape to even get a political party registered is mindnumbing

2017-05-17_10:05:32 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Really? I heard India had like 20?

2017-05-17_10:05:41 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes there are a lot of parties..but they are splintered from bigger parties

2017-05-17_10:05:43 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: So i figured it was easy lol

2017-05-17_10:05:51 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: and the exact number will be more than twenty

2017-05-17_10:05:56 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh dear

2017-05-17_10:06:16 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Is it true that its impossible for legislation to get passed as a result?

2017-05-17_10:06:38 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I heard it describes as "organized anarchy" surely thats not true

2017-05-17_10:06:59 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well Indian political parties form coalitions at the drop of a hat

2017-05-17_10:07:06 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: and one government lasted 13 days

2017-05-17_10:07:20 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: so Organised Anarchy is accurate to a certain degree

2017-05-17_10:08:53 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh wow. See the idea of such a short government is absolutely terrifying to me

2017-05-17_10:09:14 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But here you serve your full term. Elections aren't easily called

2017-05-17_10:09:33 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: We just had one yesterday in my commonwealth

2017-05-17_10:09:41 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: political parties "modify" their ideologies depending on populism...so the same party will ban beef in one state while allowing it in another

2017-05-17_10:14:33 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh thats big news here.

2017-05-17_10:14:44 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: It's not being reported positively sadly

2017-05-17_10:16:07 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes the irony is that nowhere is it written in Hindu scriputure that you cant eat beef...its a personal prefernce not religious..but over the years it has become a major political issue

2017-05-17_10:16:18 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Our 2 main parties are basically permanrnt coalitions. So each will have a broad general platform. So it's hard for the parties themselves to be populous, but individual candidates can be populist.

2017-05-17_10:16:45 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Why has it become such an issue then? Is it a made up one?

2017-05-17_10:17:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: It's sort of become a cultural practice now..with noone really sure where and when it started...the scriptures don't talk about food habits

2017-05-17_10:18:23 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: See that's somewhat interesting as here a vegetarian diet is highly associated with hinduism

2017-05-17_10:19:29 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I recently visited a temple in NYC (I love foreign religion and archutecture) and they were very vegetarian heavy. Like they had a kitchen that only served vegetarian meals

2017-05-17_10:24:48 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well there is no official holy book of Hinduism..like there is no Bible, or Quoran ..so there are sects that impose their own interpretations

2017-05-17_10:25:06 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: This guy is a self-procliamed Godman with thousands of followers

2017-05-17_10:25:07 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q48tagwurUw

2017-05-17_10:25:39 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Like some people will get really angry if you make fun of  him

2017-05-17_10:26:26 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yet this video may be the funniest thing you see today

2017-05-17_10:31:52 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: A god man?

2017-05-17_10:32:00 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Like he declared himself god?

2017-05-17_10:32:07 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes

2017-05-17_10:32:15 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: he is a living god for his followers

2017-05-17_10:34:22 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh thats a bug cultural no no here

2017-05-17_10:34:28 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: So like....

2017-05-17_10:34:49 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I have no idea how to interpret what I'm seeing

2017-05-17_10:35:30 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Like we have comparable concerts with just as unimaginative music. But the god aspect....

2017-05-17_10:35:44 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I will be showing it to my friends

2017-05-17_10:37:46 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well you will probably like this as well....I will see if I cn find one with English subtitles..he made a film

2017-05-17_10:37:47 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z_T5ZLD7AI

2017-05-17_10:45:23 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: *_*

2017-05-17_10:45:37 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I don't unserstand

2017-05-17_10:46:13 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: So whybisbhe viewed as a god?

2017-05-17_10:46:53 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Because this looks like power rangers

2017-05-17_10:47:25 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: This is his wikipedia entry

2017-05-17_10:47:25 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurmeet_Ram_Rahim_Singh

2017-05-17_10:48:53 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: He has Z+ security from your government. I have no idea what that is lol. But he seems like a rather good person. Odd costumes aside

2017-05-17_10:48:59 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: the sad part is some of his followers will actually beleive he fought those CGI monsters

2017-05-17_10:49:38 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: most of the religious leaders have several criminal cases pending against them..this guy is no exception

2017-05-17_10:50:29 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh wow

2017-05-17_10:50:48 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: but they get away bcoz of their links with politicians

2017-05-17_10:52:09 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh of course

2017-05-17_15:34:16 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: wow

2017-05-17_15:35:10 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I bet the no beef eating is rather close to the "traditionnal" meal for Friday

2017-05-17_15:35:21 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: when it's tradition to get some fish

2017-05-17_15:35:55 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: And this guy, this preacher comes from Bollywood ?

2017-05-17_15:45:51 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Unfortunately the preachrr guy does not come from Bollywood

2017-05-17_15:46:28 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: No one is really sure how that rule of not eating beef came about

2017-05-17_15:51:27 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: We lost a ton of things and their origin into history

2017-05-17_15:52:57 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: For example, did you know that the technology to make alliages of space rockets, because the formulas were in old computers that were just unused in nasa ? And now, they have trouble finding them back and saving them ?

2017-05-17_15:53:20 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: did you know that wa almost forgot the technology*

2017-05-17_18:51:51 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Thanks to the Internet the situation is a bit better now

2017-05-17_18:52:21 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Many things can be stored in archives online ones

2017-05-18_05:01:04 GMT | 297946912685031424 | anothernewone2: making alliages of old rockets, does that mean like recycling them into usable materials or something

2017-05-18_05:01:05 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **anothernewone2 leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/314628439598694400/levelup.png

2017-05-18_07:53:53 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: It means they didn't know how to do space rockets anymore

2017-05-18_14:30:06 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Question : what is the symbol of the Harkonnen House ? Atreides have a hawk, but what about their foes ?

2017-05-18_14:35:25 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: its not mentioned in the books

2017-05-18_14:36:24 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: damn

2017-05-18_14:36:32 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: "perdon my french" :p

2017-05-18_14:39:56 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: 😃

2017-05-18_14:40:06 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: it may be a fat pig

2017-05-18_14:41:22 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: hahaha

2017-05-18_19:36:38 GMT | 297946912685031424 | anothernewone2: a snake would be good for the harkonnens

2017-05-18_19:37:28 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: this is what I thought too

2017-05-18_19:46:47 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: For the emperor Saddam I think it's a lion the symbol

2017-05-18_19:47:05 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Shaddam

2017-05-18_19:48:51 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: For his throne is called the golden lion throne

2017-05-18_20:53:07 GMT | 297946912685031424 | anothernewone2: from the dune wiki "Within Frank Herbert's continuity, the official seal of House Harkonnen bore the image of a griffin. The Dune Encyclopedia altered it to a ram which was followed by video game adaptations developed by Westwood Studios."   i don't remember anything about a griffin in dune though

2017-05-18_21:27:59 GMT | 250665644733890570 | Pipes-Many-Momes: I think the griffin thing was mentioned in Heretics, but I'm not sure

2017-05-18_21:28:42 GMT | 250665644733890570 | Pipes-Many-Momes: when Duncan and the Bashar were in the Harkonnen no-globe

2017-05-18_22:08:05 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: oh thanks !

2017-05-18_22:08:06 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **LackofSins leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/314886897795334144/levelup.png

2017-05-19_19:46:18 GMT | 297946912685031424 | anothernewone2: Why didn't anyone ever think to attack leto II with water?  The one thing the Fremen had information about was ecology, they would know about the properties of the sand trout.  I mean Siona ultimately did I guess, but it seems like something that should have been common knowledge on Arrakis.

2017-05-19_19:47:49 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well Leto II was the first and last of his kind...so they had no idea if water would work on him... and his prescience meant that he would see such a water attack coming and guard against it

2017-05-19_23:27:14 GMT | 297946912685031424 | anothernewone2: I mean like when the tribes of fremen were coming to try to hurt him at the end of CoD, they could have just doused him in water then and he wouldve just been a kid

2017-05-20_08:49:03 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Is human body and sandwormon body where dependent on one another

2017-05-20_17:11:39 GMT | 315535239495548928 | idfeiid: <@250665644733890570>.  I think navigators of dune book credits the Griffin symbol to the memory of Griffin harkonen.

2017-05-21_21:12:14 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Has anyone else noticed the similarities between the Fremen of Dune and the Free Folk of Westeros? Was GRRM inspired by Dune, or were they both referincing some older trope?

2017-05-21_21:13:30 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: A mysterious group of 'free people', outside of the main government. Misunderstood and feared, the main character  learns to live amongst them, become one of them, and use them as an army to take out the baddies

2017-05-22_06:01:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@288234041025495041> yes its a trope in sci-fi and fantasy, ihe Fremen/Freefolk etc...usually provide contrast to the mainstraem way of life... a sort of unstructured society where the protagonist finds something the manstream society cant provide

2017-05-22_06:19:06 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: <@230009305326157825> That makes sense. Can you name some other examples of this? tbh i haven't read all that much fantasy/sci fi

2017-05-22_06:20:12 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@288234041025495041> I will look for more examples ..a real life example is the Amish People...misunderstood but probably not feared 😃

2017-05-22_06:22:09 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@288234041025495041> I must disagree. I see the Fremen as a fully formed nationstate. They have something akin to central organization and codified laws that every sietch follows. The free folk aren't really like that

2017-05-22_06:24:43 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: <@267882472157609985> yeah culture-wise they do have some Stark differences. But in terms of their purpose in the plot, you have to admit it is eerily similar

2017-05-22_06:24:52 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Jon Snow is basically the Muad'dib of Westeros

2017-05-22_06:25:26 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Idk about that

2017-05-22_06:25:48 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I mean unlike John snow, Muad'dib is competent haha

2017-05-22_06:25:57 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Haha okay you got me there

2017-05-22_06:26:14 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But the motivations of both are also much different

2017-05-22_06:26:43 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: The fremen's goal is to terraform dune. Every sietch is dedicated to this

2017-05-22_06:26:50 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Of Jon and Paul, sure. The motivations of the Fremen/Freefolk are pretty similar though

2017-05-22_06:27:16 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: The free folks only motivation is to get over the wall and survive and without a central figure its every man for himself.

2017-05-22_06:28:18 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: The Fremen's goal is also long term. The free folk' s goal is very short term and they have no plan for once they get past the wall.

2017-05-22_06:28:54 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: The free Folk rallied behind Mance in a similar way they rallied behind Stilgar

2017-05-22_06:29:01 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: They follow strength

2017-05-22_06:29:29 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And that's another difference

2017-05-22_06:29:48 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: The Fremen follow Stilgar because he is competent not just for his strength

2017-05-22_06:30:11 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And if we killed Stilgar, there would be someone to take his place.

2017-05-22_06:30:20 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: How is that different from Mance? They followed Mance because he had the skill to pull together dozens of clans who hated each other

2017-05-22_06:30:32 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: If we kill mance, And there's no john, what happens?

2017-05-22_06:31:05 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: The Fremen are a meritocracy, I see the free folk as most semi-organized anarchy

2017-05-22_06:31:18 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: You're really knit-picking here. I'm not saying both groups are the same. I'm saying in broad strokes their purpose in the plot is very similar

2017-05-22_06:31:29 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And I disagree with that

2017-05-22_06:32:14 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I mean Paul doesn't win due to the Fremen, he wins because he can destroy the spice

2017-05-22_06:32:34 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: The free folk are more of a warning of what's coming

2017-05-22_06:32:51 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: If anything I see them as playing the parts of the Honored Matres

2017-05-22_06:33:01 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: A threat that is running from a bigger threar

2017-05-22_06:33:03 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Threat*

2017-05-22_06:34:10 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: The main character is prophesiced to be "the one". In order to do this he finds himself among a band of free people, who regular society dismiss as barbarians. Through his skills and respect he ends up their leader, and uses his new army to fight back against a looming threat

2017-05-22_06:34:28 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: You can argue the details all you want, but come on

2017-05-22_06:34:42 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Yeah but in Dune this is a false prophesy

2017-05-22_06:35:12 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And how is John going to use the free folk to fight off any threat? By the last book there is what, 2000 of them?

2017-05-22_06:36:11 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And if you're not going to take into account of details then why even compare the two?

2017-05-22_06:38:41 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: I noticed some similarities between these two books, I want to have a nice discussion about it, not get into an argument. Dismissing the similarities just because there are differences is needlessly contrarian.

2017-05-22_06:39:04 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I am having a discussion

2017-05-22_06:39:31 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And I'm not dismissing the similarities, I'm pointing out that there are more differences than similarities

2017-05-22_06:39:54 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Disagreement is a part of discussion, no?

2017-05-22_06:48:28 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: However, I think if you wanna draw this comparison between the two books a better example would be between Paul and Danny.

2017-05-22_08:08:54 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I agree with <@267882472157609985> , the Free Folk are completely different from the Fremen. Of course, as <@288234041025495041> said, the global plot is similar, but to be honest, there are many many example of that in culture

2017-05-22_08:09:12 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: for example, Lawrence of Arabia, Luke and the Rebels in Star Wars, etc

2017-05-22_08:09:36 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Lawrence of Arabia is, by the way, a direct inspiration for Dune

2017-05-22_08:10:45 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Yet, Fremen are a completely organized people. Thy live in sietches, are autonomous and do not attack themselves, only trespassers. If the Naib dies, another Fremen takes its place. If Mance Rayder dies, the Free Folks return to their previous occupation

2017-05-22_08:17:18 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Well I thoughtit was an interesting parallel but if nobody agrees then I'll concede my point

2017-05-22_08:24:21 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: There are definitely similarities and differnces as well..its definitely something of interest

2017-05-22_08:42:54 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Off the top of my head the similarities I can think of are--- 1. Both cultures are wary of outsiders. 2. Both are oppressed races. 3. Both cultures value good warriors. 4. Both Cultures show fanatical loyalty once its won. 5. Both cultures have secret weapons "Fremen Ride Worms" + FreeFolk have giants 6. Both cultures are considered "primitive" 7. Both races considered game changers in wars between "civilized" factions. 8. Protagonist love interest from both cultures (Chani, Ygritte)...love interests tragically die....

2017-05-22_08:44:57 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: 9. Protagonist + primitive love ineterst.."do it" in the caves 😃

2017-05-22_08:49:26 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Both are dismissed as being too disjointed and small in number to be considered a threat

2017-05-22_08:50:09 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The Women of both races are formidable warriors

2017-05-22_08:50:27 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Chani vs Ygritte, who would win?

2017-05-22_08:50:38 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: I mean Chani obviously, but I'd love to see that fight anyway

2017-05-22_08:50:52 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Ygritte with a bow?

2017-05-22_08:51:43 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Ooh good point

2017-05-22_08:51:58 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: We didn't get to see Chani fight much

2017-05-22_09:10:09 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Eh, I think the similarities are superficial at best.

2017-05-22_09:11:34 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But I think  <@288234041025495041> isn't necessarily wrong about those similarities. I just think you can apply it better to the dothraki and unsullied. That and Danny's story is closer to Paul's than John's.

2017-05-22_20:59:51 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: I agree that danny is closer to Paul than Jon, but I don't see how a group of slave eunuchs are closer to the Fremen than the Free Folk

2017-05-22_21:16:34 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Fremen and Freefolk are defined by their need to survive in the hash environments they live in. The Dothraki seem to be doing just fine raping and pillaging the Dothraki Sea, and the Unsullied are not even a 'people', just an army.

2017-05-22_21:36:41 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: If I were to venture a small and slight contribution to the topic. I'd like to perhaps take a step back from whether or not The Song of Ice and Fire borrowed the themes from Dune regarding the Freefolk vs Fremen and instead try to point at a larger narrative trend that has it's roots a bit earlier than either of these.

If I were to venture a guess, both GRRM and Herbert probably on some level decided to take a very modern sort of interpretation of the Noble Savage archetype that commonly started off historically as a response to European Imperialism. You get the tropes in both the Fremen and the Freefolk of these cultures being comparatively primitive and naive with respect to the wider culture that they find themselves within yet isolated from.You get Hawat marvel at Fremen "naivete" when seeing how the Fremen saw nothing wrong with rendering a corpse for water.

The general concepts revolving around this literary device is the idea that the indigenous people have a sort of "natural wisdom" that has been lost in the cities. You get Frank Herbert saying "Polish comes from the city, wisdom from the desert" which reinforces that cultural thought.

2017-05-22_21:37:30 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Honestly though, I do believe that with Frank Herbert, the intention to subvert and generally deconstruct the Noble Savage archetype with his portrayal of the Fremen is rather well thought out at least.

2017-05-22_21:39:09 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Typically, the Noble Savage's culture is oppressed with no means of recourse (as far as I can tell). It's generally a response from historical Europeans who argued against European Imperialism (think Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad) as a degradation of European morality. However, with the Fremen, while they do start off as the oppressed civilization under the Harkonnens, it really does turn out to be that they were biding their time and were subtly working towards their own independent goals

2017-05-22_21:39:53 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: and then you find the Fremen doing the same: going on a galactic Jihad and suppressing all the other cultures. This goes against that formula traditionally, and I think this fits with the inspiration Frank Herbert has taken with the middle east during the 60's regarding the political dynamics there.

2017-05-22_21:40:34 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: It's a subversion and deconstruction of "The Noble Savage" and rather paints things in terms less of "these people are different and inferior and posess greater desert wisdom" but more about cultural and sociological pressures that cause the flow of civilizations.

2017-05-22_21:41:12 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Yes, the desert is a major part of the sociological and environmental pressures, but that's a matter of geography, not innate Fremen qualities.

2017-05-22_21:42:20 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I'm not as familiar with George R. R. Martin's work as much (only read the first couple books) but I imagine that the Free Folk is some sort of personal yet unintentional use of that trope in his work to help provide character development for Jon Snow.

2017-05-22_21:42:37 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Buuuuut, I'm not a literature expert, so I could be mistaken on many points.

2017-05-22_21:44:10 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: That being said, despite what I said about deconstructing the Noble Savage archetype, I do feel as though Frank Herbert did feel that there was a lessening with civlization and that his natural inclinations towards Romanticism over Enlightment ideals is at the root of it.

2017-05-22_21:44:21 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Not sure, it's a foggy thing that I just sorta thought up while typing this stuff

2017-05-22_22:03:27 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: I think you're spot on <@138005062478856192> . The way the Fremen became oppressors themselves is a clear commentary of how the Noble Savage trope is overblown. I was just reading today about Liberia, an African country made up of freed African American slaves, who then went ahead and enslaved the native Africans themselves. It shows how what we see as 'noble' primitive culture is really just a product of the limitations imposed upon them

2017-05-22_22:05:33 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Which channel is best for posting quotes?

2017-05-22_22:05:48 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Listening to GEoD again and I just heard a great one I never picked up on before.

2017-05-22_22:05:58 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: I'm shocked we don't have a quotes channel already

2017-05-22_22:06:39 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Should I post it here, then?

2017-05-22_22:12:26 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: <@189879768886411264> Post it wherever you think would fit. We've already got tons and tons and tons of side channels, so chances are that it won't be too out-of-place if it's Dune related.

<@288234041025495041> Thanks man. I was just sorta thinking about it and that was the conclusions I came to for now. I'm not a literary critic by any formal training/education, so naturally it'd require a more thorough level of thought before I manage to reconcile the deconstruction of the Noble Savage in Dune with Herbert's obvious inclinations towards Romanticism with regards to scientific advancement.

2017-05-22_22:15:46 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: “Lord, have you no improvement of the human stock in mind?”

“I am a predator, Moneo.”

“Predator, Lord?”

“The predator improves the stock.”

“How can this be, Lord? You do not hate us.”

“You disappoint me, Moneo. The predator does not hate its prey.”

"Predators kill, Lord.”

“I kill, but I do not hate. Prey assuages hunger. Prey is good.”

2017-05-22_22:30:22 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: "Moneo, I'm totally evil"

"No lord, you're great"

"No seriously Moneo, I eat babies and kick puppies. Are you sure you don't want to rebel against me?"

"Of course not my Lord, you're the bee's knees!"

"Come on, betray me! What are you, chicken?"

"Never! I love you!"

"God Emperor Damn it Moneo. I hope your daughter isn't as stupid as you"

2017-05-22_22:35:17 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Pfffft

2017-05-22_22:35:19 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **weavile leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/316343295594987520/levelup.png

2017-05-22_23:03:52 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Kull wahad!

2017-05-23_05:35:34 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@288234041025495041> <@189879768886411264> I have created a Quotes channel

2017-05-23_05:40:30 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Nice!

2017-05-23_05:40:42 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I'll be posting good quotes I find as I reread

2017-05-23_06:20:18 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@138005062478856192> Herbert really loves subverting tropes.. many of the major Sci-fi tropes are subverted by him...

2017-05-23_06:40:06 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: <@230009305326157825> Yeah, but subverting the noble savage idea seems to conflict with Herbert's seemingly idealistic view of the indigenous culture having greater natural wisdom.  That something is lost with the advent of advancement. Again, I do need to clarify my thoughts a bit more, but you are correct that Herbert loves to subvert common tropes.

2017-05-23_06:56:52 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@138005062478856192> I can see arguments for the Noble Savage, But I'm not sure if thats the case. I mean are the Fremen actually oppressed? I mean the Harkonnens "hunt" them, But how successful are they? Are they hunting actual Fremen or just villagers on the frontier the Harkonnens say are Fremen? I mean can you really say a people are oppressed when they have almost total control of a planet? Remember all Imperial Settlements are clustered in the Northern Hemisphere in the Shield Wall and along the North Pole. That leave the rest of the planet for the Fremen to do what they will. What's more, The Fremen actively inhibit Imperial Expansion by keeping them ignorant of what is happening on Arrakis. This is seem by the Fremen bribing the ST.

2017-05-23_06:58:52 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: In the instance <@138005062478856192> brought up about Thufir and water reclamation, could that not be a clashing of cultures rather than a Noble Savage interaction? I mean Thufir and the Fremen come from different cultures. I'm sure the Fremen would be as horrified by our death rituals as we are theirs.

2017-05-23_07:00:15 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> Fremen have faced historical oppression...they have been driven from planets..remeber the Fremen litany ..."They denied us the Hajj"....

2017-05-23_07:00:52 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@230009305326157825> True, but how long ago was that?

2017-05-23_07:01:19 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: If that was 5000 years ago can one say the Fremen are still oppressed in the same way?

2017-05-23_07:02:25 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I mean in the US we sing a national anthem that reminds us of our fight against the British, But we would never say we're still oppressed by them

2017-05-23_07:02:40 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: As for Got, I really don't see any Noble Savage tropes with the Dothraki or the Free Folk. I

2017-05-23_07:05:08 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: @chopper Fremen lacked representation...they had no sway over who would rule their planet Arrakis..they were forced to serve foreign rulers...like Hkonnen and Atreides

2017-05-23_07:05:13 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I see the Free Folk as being analogs to the Irish and Scottish Clans that inhabited the British Isles in the Dark Ages. And obviously the Dothraki are Scythians or Mongols. One thing <@288234041025495041> fails to mention about them is if anything Horse Peoples like the Dothraki, Mongols, or Scythians are probably the closest things we have in our History to the Fremen.

2017-05-23_07:06:28 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@230009305326157825> So what if the Fremen lacked representation? The control the majority of their planet and they weren't serving foreign rulers, only those in the cities were

2017-05-23_07:07:25 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Look at how Leto had to deal with the Fremen, he had to send Idaho as basically an ambassador to them. That's recognition of power.

2017-05-23_07:08:10 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: They also mention that Imperial Authorities don't even know how many Fremen there are. How do you rule people you don't even know are there?

2017-05-23_07:08:30 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I was trying to say that the Fremen were a subversion to the noble savage, not that they were the classic depiction

2017-05-23_07:09:53 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: That despite their otherness, they weren't exactly oppressed and that a lot of the characteristics of the noble savage archetype are twisted in the Fremen depiction. It's a deconstruction.

2017-05-23_07:11:11 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: But a lot of the tropes are there, and the ideas for the free folk and Fremen tribes could potentially originate from that classic historical idea with modern twists.

2017-05-23_07:11:44 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: See I have a hard time seeing that. Especially with George RR as he is a student if history

2017-05-23_07:12:06 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: For him to participate in that would go against a lot of historical common sense

2017-05-23_07:12:36 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I think with the Fremen what we're getting is the classic tale of Revoultion

2017-05-23_07:13:19 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Again, I need to reiterate that I'm not particularly married to the idea I put forth. It was just a thought I had.

2017-05-23_07:13:29 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Paul and the Fremen are going to "reform the system" for the better of all. And that eventually is twisted into something horrible like all revolution eventually become

2017-05-23_07:13:50 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Yeah, that is the theme that Frank Herbert goes for.

2017-05-23_07:14:01 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I'm not gonna disagree there

2017-05-23_07:14:03 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: This is doubly disgusting in Dune as Paul starts this revolution just to give up on it in the end so all that death and destruction is ultimately useless

2017-05-23_07:14:38 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: GoT is going in the same direction as well

2017-05-23_07:15:04 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Again, I've only read the first couple books for Song of Ice and Fire

2017-05-23_07:15:19 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: So I can't say much about how that's developed

2017-05-23_07:16:26 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Anyways, it's like 2am here, my brain is fuzzy. Thus I bid you adieu.

2017-05-23_07:16:30 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: See many fantasy/sci-fi authors buildup the protagonist, depict his as an ideal ruler..etc...only to subvert it later by showing the protagonist's dark side

2017-05-23_07:17:10 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: GoT could go the same way..Dany..Jon

2017-05-23_07:17:16 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Do they <@230009305326157825> ?

2017-05-23_07:17:31 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I feel like that's a fairly new trope

2017-05-23_07:17:42 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I will look for other examples

2017-05-23_07:17:55 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I mean if you read sci-fi from the 50s its nothing but happy endings

2017-05-23_07:18:24 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I feel like the unhappy ending of Dune was fairly revolutionary for its time, But it's more common on lit today

2017-05-23_07:18:37 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yup..exactly

2017-05-23_07:18:49 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Dune was ahead of its time..

2017-05-23_07:57:19 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Indeed

2017-05-23_09:12:48 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I think one of the gretest accomplishments would be the giant sandworms...other sci-fi authors create hordes of alien races...Herbert created just one..and it became iconic...

2017-05-23_09:32:22 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Yes it was an interesting choice to go with the Animal-Human Alliance Trope

2017-05-23_09:33:00 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: <@267882472157609985> I must disagree on something : Fremen are indeed oppressed under Harkonnen rule. Hell, after Leto's death, Fremen even say Harkonnens are doing a "pogrom" on them. I think the word is intentionnal

2017-05-23_09:33:53 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Afterwards, this word comes back only once, during Cahpterhouse

2017-05-23_09:33:58 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Chapterhouse*

2017-05-23_09:34:27 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes Beast Rabban was giving them a hard time

2017-05-23_09:34:48 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: See I can't see him giving them a hard tine

2017-05-23_09:34:53 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Also, I don't see Jon Snow being corrupted to evil... I mean he has stayed the same overall. Maybe his death made him wiser about it

2017-05-23_09:35:04 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I think that's exaggeration on the part of city and towns folk

2017-05-23_09:35:07 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: but he is still naive. More than the Free folk actually

2017-05-23_09:37:27 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@174539900102639617> I don't see John becoming evil, he's to inept for that (I really hate all the male Starks, like a lot) But Martin enjoys how cyclical history is and how perceived hero's eventually become villans

2017-05-23_09:37:45 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And I see that with Danny

2017-05-23_09:38:07 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: But I agre with <@138005062478856192> on the myth of the "Good savage", adding this : Europeans, when discovering America, thought they found some "good savages", untouched by civilization, and the Europeans went there to get their resources. This is similar to Fremen who live in the desert. Then, add religion somehow linked to Islam (Jihad, etc), the idea that spice is petrol, and you get Fremen. IMO

2017-05-23_09:38:51 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: <@267882472157609985> Same ! Jon is a baby, but Danny, with pursuing her dream of justice, is slowly becoming injust. That's the paradox : when trying to be better, you actually go worse

2017-05-23_09:39:00 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: See you can't apply Savage to the Fremen bc they aren't uncivilized or technologically backward

2017-05-23_09:39:14 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: They're aware of and use the same tech Imperials are using

2017-05-23_09:39:25 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: And stillsuits are even more advanced

2017-05-23_09:39:39 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: They have glowglobes, projectiles, can pilot machinery

2017-05-23_09:40:03 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Indeed : it's deconstruction of the "good savage" myth

2017-05-23_09:40:08 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: they aren't savages

2017-05-23_09:40:59 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: See I don't see it as a deconstruction bc the reader known they're not savages from the start

2017-05-23_09:41:26 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Its not a one-on-one parallell with the "good savage".....Fremen are a mix of various tropes+some of Herbert's original ideas....

2017-05-23_09:41:35 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: mixed together

2017-05-23_09:41:54 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Like the idea that heroes are ideal persons, evil-free : FH set it up like that, he introduce a prophecy, the Kwisatz Haderach, the Man beyond men, and he shows how that man is not "good"

2017-05-23_09:42:14 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Its even debabtable whther Paul is really the KH?

2017-05-23_09:42:15 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: How he creates by its own existence fanatism, violence, jihad

2017-05-23_09:42:47 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I do not know. He has mentats abilities, BG training, and spice overdose. Does that makes him a super-human (?) or a KH ?

2017-05-23_09:42:49 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: See I think the Fremen are the Mongols

2017-05-23_09:43:03 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Yes ?

2017-05-23_09:43:19 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: They're snapped by the environment to the point where they're strong enough to overthrough a complacent society and replace it with their own

2017-05-23_09:43:24 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: He can access the male parts of "other memory".... leto 2 could do that as well

2017-05-23_09:43:30 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: will thereal KH plz stand up?

2017-05-23_09:43:41 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And as the cycle goes they become complacent in turn until they lose control

2017-05-23_09:44:08 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> Like the mongols they had a charismatic leader

2017-05-23_09:44:40 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Gengis Khan, who is said to have impregnated so much women 1/10 human on earth would be his descendant....

2017-05-23_09:44:50 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: like the Atreides in tha later books

2017-05-23_09:45:51 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes... God Empeoro..really like Genghis Khan in some ways

2017-05-23_09:46:29 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Huh, I think the later Atreides are descendants of Ghanima, not Leto II ?

2017-05-23_09:46:38 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes

2017-05-23_09:46:50 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: i meant in terms of being a tyrant

2017-05-23_09:47:28 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: haha yes

2017-05-23_13:53:30 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: <@230009305326157825> To answer your other message, there's no reason why there couldn't be multiple Kwisatz Haderachs

2017-05-23_13:53:37 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: If it's a matter of genes

2017-05-23_13:53:57 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Leto II and Paul Muad'Dib both fit the bill

2017-05-23_16:59:05 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@189879768886411264> Yes..i suppose so,,,,makes me wonder about the Tleixu one..did he forsee a future where the Tluxiue reigned supreme and killed himself?

2017-05-23_17:06:39 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Remind me about that, the Tleilaxu KH mentioned in Heretics?

2017-05-23_17:07:04 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: It may be the case that he wasn't KH but was rather Abomination

2017-05-23_17:07:12 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: The line between the two is very blurred

2017-05-23_17:09:08 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: He is mentioned in messiah also... i dont think the Tlelixu would care if he was abomination...but possible...

2017-05-23_17:09:51 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: They surely wouldn't care, but it's more a question what the biological difference between KH and Abomination is

2017-05-23_17:10:07 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: One is induced by genes, the other by behavior

2017-05-23_17:10:45 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The KH is mentally stable..can handle the internal mental forces

2017-05-23_18:27:19 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: So, a question. If Leto II hated the Bene Tleilax so, why did they end up making him a central figure in their religion by the time of Heretics? Did they not know he despised them?

2017-05-23_18:28:32 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Hmm... well i see it as a sort of Herbert's inside joke...its kind of like him saying..that the Prophets we worship today..may have hated our kind in the past

2017-05-23_18:29:10 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: A major theme of the GodEmperor book is "distortion of historical facts by historians"

2017-05-23_18:29:34 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I see

2017-05-23_18:30:06 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Similar to how some greedy wealthy Christians would be vilified by Christ

2017-05-23_18:30:27 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Or for a better example, the Romans

2017-05-23_18:31:38 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: speaking of Christ... or any religious prophet.. we are getting one-side of the story..

2017-05-23_18:31:50 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: True

2017-05-23_18:32:02 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I am pretty sure a lot of historical records were destriyed by religious leaders

2017-05-23_18:32:17 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: What I'd give for Other Memory, lol

2017-05-23_18:33:01 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: it would be depressing i feel...you would literally see that history repeats itself

2017-05-23_18:33:20 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I suppose, but I can see that already

2017-05-23_18:33:39 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: reading bout it and experiencing it will be different

2017-05-23_18:34:38 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Does a Reverend Mother experience her Other Memory? In the same way Leto did?

2017-05-23_18:34:55 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I always imagined it was just the memories, not the actual living

2017-05-23_18:35:34 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well there was a debate about this

2017-05-23_18:36:17 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I'd imagine there were several in-universe too

2017-05-23_18:36:35 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I think for the God Emperor....the experience was like this..say you had a coffee yesterday...and today you try to remember the taste....I feel that for the God Emperor every "other memory" was like that trying to experience the coffee that someone had 1000 years back filtered through that individual's perspective/bias...

2017-05-23_18:37:06 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Whereas with a RM it's more unconscious?

2017-05-23_18:37:36 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: With the RMs..the old RMs..seem to be giving them advice and all

2017-05-23_18:38:09 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: the old RMs keep on existing within their psyche

2017-05-23_18:38:32 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The God Emperor could make "them" shut up

2017-05-23_18:39:24 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: this is my interpretation

2017-05-23_18:40:24 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: So from what I gather, we can infer three types of Other Memory

2017-05-23_18:41:19 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: That of the Reverend Mothers, who are in complete control, that of Abominations, who are sucesceptible to being possessed, and that of Leto and Ghanima, which seems to straddle that line

2017-05-23_18:43:26 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Although it's been years since I read Children, so I can't remember if Ghani experienced it the same way as Leto, aside from having 50% less people present in her head

2017-05-23_18:46:20 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: How did earlier get access to the barons memories is she also a KH

2017-05-23_18:46:31 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Alia

2017-05-23_18:47:00 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Next time I have read the books I will make a chart of how other memory is different for different characters

2017-05-23_18:47:05 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: 😀

2017-05-23_18:47:18 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Abominations don't inherently have OM then?

2017-05-23_18:47:56 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Only the KH is supposed to have access to the male side of the memories

2017-05-23_18:48:00 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I might flip through my Dune Encyclopedia to look around, it's not strictly canon but it certainly explains a lot about this sort of thing

2017-05-23_18:48:06 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Oh but she still had female ones

2017-05-23_18:48:16 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes

2017-05-23_18:48:36 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: As far as I understood, though, a female KH couldn't exist

2017-05-23_18:48:59 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Like you could still try to look to that other side, but it would undoubtedly destroy you

2017-05-23_18:49:05 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Hmm... Yes

2017-05-23_18:50:00 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: So the baron was able to possse her because she was an abomination

2017-05-23_18:50:03 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: ??

2017-05-23_18:50:07 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Yeah

2017-05-23_18:50:27 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Although other Reverend Mothers had apparently attempted accessing male memories with thr same effect

2017-05-23_18:52:20 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The God Emperor could also become one of his ancestors perfectly without that person taking over so was that something only he could do???

2017-05-23_18:53:08 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Probably because he was both Kwisatz Haderach and Abomination simultaneously

2017-05-23_18:54:07 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The God emperor was an exceptional case in all kinds of ways<:baron2:304498979905863680>

2017-05-23_18:54:29 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The God emperor was an exceptional case in all kinds of ways<:baron2:304498979905863680>

2017-05-23_18:55:19 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: This only gets more complicated when you bring in Honored Matres

2017-05-23_18:55:32 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: What are their possible capabilities?

2017-05-23_18:56:34 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I feel that Frank Herbert probably have some other special abilities in mind for them whichu have revealed in the later books

2017-05-23_18:56:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: He

2017-05-23_18:58:15 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Anyways I gotta go to sleep now it's really late here

2017-05-23_18:58:28 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Night!

2017-05-23_19:07:50 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: HM had sexual abilities, to enslave men with sex.

2017-05-23_19:08:10 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: What Murbella did to Duncan in Chapterhouse.

2017-05-23_19:10:42 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: They had no other memory abilities, as far as I remember. Save for Murbella, who was trained as a BG when she was on board the no-ship.

2017-05-23_19:25:36 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Didn't they have some sort of spice alternative? Or am I misremembering

2017-05-23_19:28:20 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I don't think so.

2017-05-23_19:30:26 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I remember a passage about their eyes turning a violent​ orange

2017-05-23_19:33:04 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Yeah, when they get angry.

2017-05-23_19:35:40 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: The Great Honored Matre a.k.a (infamously by thr BG) "Spider Queen" was frequently depicted with orange eyes whenever she became enraged on everyone around her.

2017-05-23_20:23:20 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Ahhh

2017-05-23_20:47:25 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: My God I forgot how hung up on this female army Duncan was

2017-05-23_20:47:58 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: "Why a female army?"

"*Detailed explanation on why a female army is better*"

"BUT WHY A FEMALE ARMY"

2017-05-23_20:58:31 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: "Girls? Kissing? That's terrible! Where are these kissing girls, so I can avoid them?"

2017-05-23_21:23:02 GMT | 250665644733890570 | Pipes-Many-Momes: LOL

2017-05-24_07:50:34 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Dborta "speaking of Christ... or any religious prophet.. we are getting one-side of the story..

[20:31] weavile: True

[20:32] dborta: I am pretty sure a lot of historical records were destriyed by religious leaders"

2017-05-24_07:51:59 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: About this, I do not know what is your knowledge about this religion, yet when you hear that The "first" Bible was written like 400 years later, and rewritten multiple times... I personnally get that a lot was lost or not taken into account. It's very human, making your idols ideal

2017-05-24_07:52:12 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@189879768886411264> <@301401211771551755> They used an "orange" drug..i will look it up

2017-05-24_07:52:30 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Indeed, an adrenalin substract

2017-05-24_07:53:09 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well my understanding is that it was a group of stories that were told orally by the disciples of Christ...

2017-05-24_07:57:31 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Yes. You can imagine how much has been deformed or forgotten in 400 years

2017-05-24_08:02:07 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Any approved scriptures will paint an ideal person...I peronally feel that if the flaws of Prophets are not hidden..it will make for better religions...I thinj F.Herbert managed to do that in Dune

2017-05-24_08:03:09 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Ah, this is a topic many will disagree with you here. I incline toward you, but I know many religious are stu... do not like to criticize their religion

2017-05-24_08:04:33 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: But would not a prophet that sinned(maybe a mnor one) then repented and was redeemed serve as better inspiration?

2017-05-24_08:06:16 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I think that in the catholic religion, saints are the one who sinned and repented. Remember that god and his son the prophet must be all good

2017-05-24_08:06:47 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: oh yes..whoops..yeah thats what saints are for

2017-05-24_08:06:52 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Though even if we have many details about his life as a prophet (from 30 to 33 years old approx), I know nothing about his life before that

2017-05-24_08:06:56 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: i conflated the two

2017-05-24_08:07:17 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: don't worry I like the idea of criticizing the religions

2017-05-24_08:07:44 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Also a normal person can become a saint through penance..etc... but a prophet is born..right?

2017-05-24_08:09:16 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: hum... I think in the old testament, some are destined to be, but are not revealed that until late

2017-05-24_08:09:20 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: until they become prophet

2017-05-24_08:09:27 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Moses was born prophet tho

2017-05-24_08:09:33 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: dunno if Abraham did

2017-05-24_08:09:43 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I think he had to sacrifice his son before that

2017-05-24_08:09:58 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: God stopped his knife before he killed his flesh and blood tho

2017-05-24_08:11:00 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Its interesting that this is followed in Dune too

Paul-Foresaw the fuutre=thats why he was a prophet

Alia-Didnt foresee----that's why a St.Alia

2017-05-24_08:11:08 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: You cant be a prophet without prophecy

2017-05-24_08:11:44 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: HAHAHAHA DAMN YOU JUST NAILED IT

2017-05-24_08:13:21 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes ..that's the thing with Dune..when you read some new book on anthropology and lingustics..or acquire any new info...you find that its there in Dune already...lol

2017-05-24_08:21:56 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Indeed, indeed

2017-05-24_08:22:02 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: same fo politics

2017-05-24_08:22:04 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: etc

2017-05-24_08:37:36 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Whats amazing is that the whole of the Matrix trilogy can be considered a Prequel to Dune

2017-05-24_08:40:58 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: how so ?

2017-05-24_08:41:09 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: The war aginst the machines ?

2017-05-24_08:41:15 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes

2017-05-24_08:41:44 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: except for the interplanteray thing

2017-05-24_08:44:00 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: ah....

2017-05-24_08:44:24 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: The Oracle could be this Norma Cenva, the maternal figure for all the Navigators xD

2017-05-24_08:46:37 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I really like Norma Cenva...

2017-05-24_09:07:00 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: <@230009305326157825> you have a point there, though in the Duniverse there is no concept of a matrix as an artificial construct made by the machines. We can say that had the Butlerian Jihad never occured, one outcome of reality could have been the formation of the matrix.

2017-05-24_09:28:14 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@301401211771551755> F.Herbert doesnt give many details about the Butlerian Jihad..he just says machines enslaved humans...and that happens in The Matrix too

2017-05-24_09:31:54 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I am going by that logic...and stretching his description 😃

2017-05-24_09:44:50 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: True, he gives no description. But there is no trace of matrix stuff in the series (that I can think of) i.e. it is a different enslavement.

2017-05-24_10:05:17 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes...Its just an illogical fan theory of mine 😃

2017-05-24_18:05:38 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: What do you all think the purpose of Duncan Idaho's character was? Not in the story, but in the metastory

2017-05-24_18:06:27 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I always assumed he was supposed to represent the reader, an everyman without any significant powers, but he never quite comes off that way. Nevertheless he's present in every novel.

2017-05-24_18:20:19 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: He is the thread that binds the whole series together

2017-05-24_18:20:36 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: When you spend thousands of years you need one person to hold it all together

2017-05-24_18:20:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Span

2017-05-24_18:57:08 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I always wondered if A Canticle for Leibowitz was a distant prequel to Dune sometimes

2017-05-24_18:57:57 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Wherein "Machines" were actually a standin for technology and mankind was in a cycle of self-destruction via nuclear warfare due to the constant striving for greater technologies which lead to war.

2017-05-25_04:45:39 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes canticle is an amazing book

2017-05-25_04:45:47 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: One of my alltime favourites

2017-05-25_07:34:57 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: adding it to my list

2017-05-25_07:35:55 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Anyone here read the "The Quantum Thief"??

2017-05-25_07:36:17 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Naut me

2017-05-25_07:37:50 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@138005062478856192> If you liked  Canticle you may like Neal Stephensons' Anathem..its far more dense and a bit slow though..but its really ambitious

2017-05-29_14:38:07 GMT | 283535471391277058 | emultion: what  do you thing about Brian Herbert' books ????

2017-05-29_14:42:30 GMT | 250665644733890570 | Pipes-Many-Momes: never read them, but I've only heard bad things lol

2017-05-30_08:41:52 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Read Hunters and Sandworms, swore never to buy anything from them again. Would read other books if they were in librarys though. There is always something valuable to learn

2017-05-30_17:41:33 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: I stopped buying these after Paul of Dune. Hunters and Sandworms were bad but countained a few - as in : one or two - good ideas. But Paul of Dune was really bad. Like in : hopelessly and utterly bad, at the point of being un-salvable. I found Winds of Dune in my library and it was kind of worse.

2017-05-30_20:44:59 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Hmmmm, Brian Herbert's Dune stuff? I can't say I'm a fan. I remember reading "The Road to Dune" from the library because it had apparently had some old excerpts that didn't make it into the original Dune and the like. So I was curious. Then I read "A Whisper of Caladan Seas" and I ended up throwing the book across the room because it pissed me off. It had some decent promise and a couple interesting ideas, but the execution of those ideas made me rather unhappy.

2017-05-30_20:45:28 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: From what I have heard, that particular short story was one of the harmless ones compared to some of the synopses I've read of the other BH works

2017-05-30_20:46:14 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I went into it like "Okay, I heard bad things about BH Dune, but I want to at least read a short story and see for myself what I think of it"

2017-05-30_20:46:18 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: and frankly, I was not a fan.

2017-05-30_20:50:25 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Brianly, you mean. Not Frankly.

2017-05-30_20:52:13 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: hahahaha

2017-05-30_23:53:07 GMT | 250665644733890570 | Pipes-Many-Momes: lmao

2017-05-31_02:18:41 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: What do you guys imagine sheer smells like?

2017-05-31_02:18:57 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: In my mind I always thought it smelled like antifreeze, or some other godawful chemical

2017-05-31_03:55:00 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I imagine it is odorless. Such that you can't detect it easily. That way you can't realize until it is too late that you can't prove their brain.

2017-05-31_03:55:20 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: But they mention several times that sheer could be smelt on them

2017-05-31_04:16:46 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Oh did they? I must have missed that bit.

2017-05-31_04:17:04 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Yeah, I only remember because I'm actively reading it again

2017-05-31_04:17:23 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Dunno why antifreeze in particular comes to mind but I cannot imagine it smelling like anything else

2017-05-31_05:24:14 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I actually like the majority of the prequels. I think a lot of the hate comes from people who wete expecting more works on par with FH, which is silly as FH was exceptional. While i didnt like their conclusion to the series I cut them some slack as FH really wrote himself into a hole and I think even his ending would have been just as bad. I mean while the later Dune books are pretty good there is a noticeable drop on quality with each book, with the exception of God Emperor.

2017-05-31_05:24:47 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Whaaat? Heretics and Messiah are great

2017-05-31_05:25:59 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Eh they drag a lot.

2017-05-31_05:26:26 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Like Teg's treck around Gammu was so slow.

2017-05-31_05:28:35 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Not that I don't like certain concepts from them, such as the Scattering. But the Scattering itself kinda defeats the purpose of the plots in the final two books as Humanity can no longer go extinct and can evolve relatively unhindered, despite whatever drama happens in the Old Imperium.

2017-05-31_05:31:01 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well the members of The Scattering were forced to return to the Old Imperium in search for answers as they had awakened an ancient evil/alien race/some other adversary

2017-05-31_05:31:33 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Certain members of the Scattering returned

2017-05-31_05:31:37 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Not all of them

2017-05-31_05:31:45 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes..to search for answers

2017-05-31_05:31:58 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: So?

2017-05-31_05:32:22 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I mean so what of theyre returning for answers?

2017-05-31_05:32:22 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: But I agree that FH was writing himself into a hole

2017-05-31_05:33:44 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: There isn't any to ve had in the Old Imperium. I mean we have to keep in mind that the Scattering is one of the goals of TGP. Its to force humanity out so far that no single force can ever control them. The inheretided ability to be immune from preciense is to help facilitate this.

2017-05-31_05:34:27 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: So so what if a portion of the scattering has walened an ancient evil? That evil will never be able to exterminate all of us.

2017-05-31_05:34:57 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Leto II saw that and was content with that outcome, else I am pretty sure he qould have mobilosed humanity to face it.

2017-05-31_05:35:31 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The members of The Scattering that returned were perhaps hoping the people of the Imperium may have answers....They were clutching at straws at this point...anyways this is conjecture as FH never got a chance to complete the series

2017-05-31_05:46:15 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I had always been under the impression that the Scattering was part of the goal of the Golden Path, but not it's end goal. The implication of Daniel and Marty (from Frank Herbert books, not BH) was that the Golden Path was to ensure the survival of humanity away from a monolithic power that could wield prescience.

However, the Golden Path was only ever able to see "locally", and didn't anticipate the threat that the Honored Matres seemed to be running from. We know that whatever Daniel and Marty were, they were capable of trapping a no ship despite no ships being immune to prescience. This implied that there was another power that could outdo prescience.

Thus, the necessity of the combination of BG and HM. While Leto II couldn't anticipate the true nature of the threat, his golden path was meant to at least set up the unification of the BG with the HM to deal with whatever it was that was supposed to scare the people from the Scattering back into the old imperium.

2017-05-31_05:47:50 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Just my interpretation is all.

2017-05-31_05:48:05 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: See i dont agree with that assessment at all as leto is precient and we know that he knows what will happen

2017-05-31_05:48:31 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Paul saw it too, but letp stepped up to take the actions necessary to save humanity

2017-05-31_05:48:39 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: This was a two fold project

2017-05-31_05:48:58 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: 1 to scatter humanity out to keep them from all being controlled centrally

2017-05-31_05:50:02 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: The second is to evolve humanity past the ability to be seen. Both of these negate whatever powers Marty and Daniel have

2017-05-31_05:50:12 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Leto was engineering his own blindness. Hence the Siona gene, and the eventual development of the no rooms and no ships. Leto's plan was to make it so he could be surprised and caught unawares.

2017-05-31_05:50:26 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: And we know that Marty and Daniel could see the no ship Duncan was in

2017-05-31_05:52:42 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: We know Leto couldn't see inside a no ship, that's what was behind Hwi Noree's birth. Leto didn't see it despite seeing everything else.

2017-05-31_05:58:37 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Obviously we don't know what Frank intended to do later with Daniel and Marty, and a lot of it is speculation. But Daniel and Marty had the ability to see where Leto could not. That alone holds massive implications. If the Golden Path's end result of no ships couldn't protect people from Daniel and Marty's vision, what's to say that other parts of the Golden Path weren't also vulnerable?

2017-05-31_05:58:49 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Obviously we don't know what Frank intended to do later with Daniel and Marty, and a lot of it is speculation. But Daniel and Marty had the ability to see where Leto could not. That alone holds massive implications. If the Golden Path's end result of no ships couldn't protect people from Daniel and Marty's vision, what's to say that other parts of the Golden Path weren't also vulnerable?

2017-05-31_06:00:33 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Did Daniel and Marty trap the ship?

2017-05-31_06:00:43 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: They almost did

2017-05-31_06:00:48 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I thought they were Face Dancers who could communicate with Idaho only

2017-05-31_06:01:00 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Like advanced Face Dancers

2017-05-31_06:01:07 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: One accused the other of letting them escape

2017-05-31_06:01:26 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I don't recall the exact quote

2017-05-31_06:01:58 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I'll get to it when I reread CH, I suppose

2017-05-31_06:03:00 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Anyways, I gotta get to bed

2017-05-31_06:03:14 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: My brain is slowing down super bad

2017-05-31_06:03:18 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I'm still so confused on what the tachyon net is

2017-05-31_06:03:21 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Goodnight!

2017-05-31_06:04:01 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Holy shit I just realized that the Tuek Face Dancer is like, foreshadowing Daniel and Marty

2017-05-31_06:04:06 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: From Heretics

2017-05-31_06:04:10 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I never even made that connection

2017-05-31_06:06:07 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Can you tell us more about it, <@189879768886411264> ?

2017-05-31_06:06:45 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: So in Heretics of Dune the Tleilaxu replace the head priest Hedley Tuek with a Face Dancer

2017-05-31_06:06:54 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: this is obviously meant as a temporary solution for them

2017-05-31_06:07:09 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: however, as time passed, the face dancer begin to believe that he was the real Tuek

2017-05-31_06:07:13 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: began*

2017-05-31_06:07:23 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: He was acting independently of Waff

2017-05-31_06:07:34 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Yes, and after this the FD refuses taking orders indeed

2017-05-31_06:07:52 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: This mirrors how Marty and Daniel act independently of Bene Tleilax

2017-05-31_06:08:04 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: it doesn't quite explain how they ascended to effective godhood however

2017-05-31_06:08:22 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: since it appears that Idaho is the only one who can see them, it was probably something accidentally bred into him by the Axolotl tanks

2017-05-31_06:09:02 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: please face dancers may be analogous to the wild randomness that spawned the Kwisatz Haderach

2017-05-31_06:09:05 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Obviously the Tuek FD is a man-engineered FD. The Daniel&Marty coule be FD-engineered FD.

2017-05-31_06:09:48 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: So they are a step further that the false Tuek

2017-05-31_06:10:01 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Exactly

2017-05-31_06:10:16 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Tuek = KH

Daniel and Marty = Leto II?

2017-05-31_06:10:23 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: At least comparatively

2017-05-31_06:10:31 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I'm not suggesting they're actually the same

2017-05-31_06:11:42 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Well that is interesting. I can't remember someone telling this before.

I et what you're saying. Of the same kind, but more powerful.

2017-05-31_06:11:42 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **Anudar leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/319357254551732225/levelup.png

2017-05-31_06:12:18 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: my question is, where Daniel and Marty born of the old Empire, or were they a product of the scattering?

2017-05-31_06:12:41 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Product of the Scattering, definitively

2017-05-31_06:13:28 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Gotta go, let's continue this later ! Have a nice day.

2017-05-31_06:13:37 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Seeya!

2017-05-31_06:19:30 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Anyone else up? I wanted to mention something about the Golden Path that I didn't when you guys were talking about it

2017-05-31_06:21:04 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Go on <@189879768886411264>

2017-05-31_06:21:32 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: so it's established in Heretics of Dune that the golden path Will Go On just because there are so many people in the scattering

2017-05-31_06:21:43 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: however I think Heretics of Dune did need to be written just for confirmation that Ledo's plan came to fruition

2017-05-31_06:21:56 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: no matter what the golden path will succeed but the reader didn't know that just by the end of got Emperor alone

2017-05-31_06:22:20 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: so while the last two books seem to be a little redundant or perhaps unneeded, I think it's important to see how things unfold after it succeeds

2017-05-31_06:22:40 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I do think some sort of epilogue after God emperor of Dune would have sufficed however

2017-05-31_06:23:03 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I'm of the opinion though that God emperor of Dune was meant to bridge two separate trilogies. One, before the golden path and then a Trilogy after to show its effects

2017-05-31_06:24:42 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@189879768886411264> yes I too belive that GE is a bridge-book between two trilogies...

2017-05-31_06:25:08 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The two trilogies are pretty much different is terms of writing style as well as character development

2017-05-31_06:26:28 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Agreed

2017-05-31_06:26:47 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I think Heretics is a lot like Dune in terms of structure however

2017-05-31_06:26:57 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: As well as its action

2017-05-31_06:27:17 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Chapterhouse is somewhat similar to Messiah in its emphasis on philosophy too

2017-05-31_06:28:07 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: God these books have so much untapped analysis, why have they been largely ignored on that front? Is it because they're "mere sci-fi fantasy"?

2017-05-31_06:29:14 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: There are not many Sci-Fi theorists in the world..and the ones that exist have names like Sci-FI characters themselves..eg... Darko Suvin... 😃

2017-05-31_06:29:48 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Their literary merit alone is worth analysis

2017-05-31_06:29:55 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Herbert was a fantastic writer

2017-05-31_06:30:13 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: His work is thought provoking as it is interesting

2017-05-31_06:30:41 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: shame most people's experience with Dune ends at "fear is the mind killer" and "the spice must flow"

2017-05-31_06:30:58 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes if you wrote a book even 20percent as good as Heretics, or God Empeoror it would be worth reading

2017-05-31_06:31:02 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: even a masterpiece

2017-05-31_06:31:06 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Mhm

2017-05-31_06:32:46 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: it's all of these things that have helped shape my own personal philosophy over the years

2017-05-31_06:33:13 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I'm seriously considering going through with my plan to basically write a fanfiction in the style of Herbert to complete the second trilogy

2017-05-31_06:33:19 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@189879768886411264> You are not alone in that 😃

2017-05-31_06:33:39 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: it was mostly just writing exercises at first but I think if I can capture the same sources that he did I could wrap up loose ends, at least better than his kid

2017-05-31_06:35:26 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: With all great creative geniuses..there are certain things which get attached to their brand forever... With FH it is "Fear is the mind..killer..." and "Spice must flow.." with Pink Floyd its' Another Brick in the Wall....but Floyd has other great songs that are little known..same with FH

2017-05-31_06:35:34 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Yeah

2017-05-31_06:35:52 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: there's nothing that bothers me more than when people remove things from their context

2017-05-31_06:36:01 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: in the Dune movie did a lot to remove that book from its context within the series

2017-05-31_06:36:17 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: ironically this is something that Herbert stressed a lot

2017-05-31_06:36:29 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: the first lines of the first book talking about putting things within their place before you can talk about them

2017-05-31_06:37:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes you can't appreciate the first book till you have finished the last one

2017-05-31_06:37:49 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Aussi, es tu français?

2017-05-31_06:37:51 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: you have to experience it as a whole

2017-05-31_06:38:17 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: oh no..lol

2017-05-31_06:38:25 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I am from India

2017-05-31_06:38:41 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I thought I saw some people speaking French 😋

2017-05-31_06:39:38 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: But yeah, if you and others were interested in keeping up to date on Frontier Dune (my working title for that short thing I wrote about the Reverend Mother) I'd gladly oblige

2017-05-31_06:39:46 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: For now I think I'm going to sleep though

2017-05-31_06:42:12 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: You can use a Google Sheet..and keep updating as you go along..Good Night 😃

2017-05-31_06:43:35 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Goodnight! And I think I will

2017-05-31_06:43:47 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: It'll mostly just be notes as I take them

2017-05-31_06:51:53 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FyPbx6Sa_M60XzxQjfl7TOTr7GOLntfxNIEpO2ANt18/edit?usp=drivesdk

2017-05-31_06:52:29 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Here's my link. I've enabled comments for feedback. This will be updated as I progress through my reread of the series and until the point I begin my first draft. Goodnight now

2017-05-31_07:38:47 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: <@189879768886411264> Je suis français, Anudar aussi

2017-05-31_07:38:59 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: enfin pas français, breton avant tout 😄

2017-05-31_10:05:06 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: <@189879768886411264> tu es français aussi 😄 ?

2017-05-31_12:01:56 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: française* je crois

2017-05-31_13:46:14 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: non mais je peux parler un peu

2017-05-31_13:46:27 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I can understand it bettet than I can speak it

2017-05-31_13:47:03 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: ok ! let's stick to english then 😃

2017-05-31_13:58:33 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: :P

2017-05-31_18:40:23 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Went to french classes, did you ?

2017-05-31_18:47:45 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: In high school and college, yea

2017-06-01_06:55:37 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Does anyone remember how much time elapsed between Heretics and Chapterhouse?

2017-06-01_07:05:48 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Not so much. Siona ages less than a few years.

2017-06-01_07:10:19 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Beginning : some months

2017-06-01_07:11:09 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: We know Teg had aged at least ten years at the end

2017-06-01_07:11:33 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: So the book lasts for something like ten-eleven years

2017-06-01_17:06:46 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Ah okay

2017-06-01_17:13:52 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: when you think of it, it's the shortest time gap in the whole Dune Cycle.

2017-06-01_17:14:03 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Dune / Messiah : 12 years.

2017-06-01_17:14:11 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Messiah / Children : 9 years.

2017-06-01_17:14:21 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Children / God Emperor : 3500 years.

2017-06-01_17:14:33 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: God Emperor / Heretics : 1500 years.

2017-06-01_17:14:51 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Heretics / Chapterhouse : ~1 year.

2017-06-01_17:15:43 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Moreover, the story in Chapterhouse covers the longest time slot : ~10 years.

2017-06-01_17:16:04 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: As <@174539900102639617> pointed.

2017-06-01_18:10:19 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Thank you!

2017-06-01_18:47:12 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Dune covers 7 weeks until Leto's death (at least), 2 years for Paul's training in the Fremen and maybe a couple of weeks

2017-06-01_18:47:29 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Messiah... I don't know

2017-06-01_18:47:39 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: could be a couple of weeks, a couple of months

2017-06-01_18:47:44 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: 9 maybe ?

2017-06-01_18:48:15 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Children : at least some months considering Leto II becomes enraged for a while on the Freakin' WHOLE PLANET

2017-06-01_18:48:26 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: GEoD... some months

2017-06-01_18:48:38 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: maybe a year

2017-06-01_18:48:55 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: and there we come to the biggest deal : how do the gholas age ?

2017-06-01_18:49:14 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Normally..I suppose once out of the tank

2017-06-01_18:49:42 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: If they grow naturally, then Duncan grows roughly sixteen years in heretics, plus you can add three months or so for their adventure

2017-06-01_18:50:02 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: If they don't, then both Heretics and Chapterhouse could happen in a few years

2017-06-01_19:02:33 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Duncan is 6 at the beginning of Heretics. So, ten years for Heretics.

2017-06-01_19:02:45 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Ten more for Chapterhouse,

2017-06-01_19:03:15 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: Twenty so for the last two books.

2017-06-01_19:15:20 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: yes

2017-06-01_20:49:12 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: He's six?

2017-06-01_20:49:20 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I thought he was 9

2017-06-01_20:50:12 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: I remember 6, but I can be mistaken.

2017-06-01_20:52:43 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I didn't realize Heretics went on as long as it did

2017-06-01_20:53:10 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Makes me feel a little less weird about Murbella basically having sex with a child

2017-06-01_23:41:46 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: Well, it's still weird.

2017-06-01_23:42:33 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I always imagined Murbella to be like 19 mentally

2017-06-01_23:42:48 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: So her with a 16 year old Idaho is less weird

2017-06-01_23:43:16 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I guess. It's kind of a gray area for me.

2017-06-01_23:43:26 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: But trying to awaken Ghola Miles Teg was weird to me. Not gonna lie.

2017-06-01_23:44:38 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Oh jeez I don't even remember how he's awakened. I only read CH once

2017-06-01_23:44:44 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I'll remember soon for sure, though

2017-06-01_23:44:54 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I'm about a third into my reread

2017-06-01_23:47:43 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I'll let you read it then.

2017-06-01_23:47:54 GMT | 138005062478856192 | Musashi: I only read it once myself, but I remember going "oh dear"

2017-06-02_04:34:54 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: For Teg, it wasn't Murbella. It was Sheeana. And it was disturbing.

2017-06-02_04:38:09 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Also when Miles Teg...gains superpowers after being tortured by the T-Probe..was really unconvincing for me..

2017-06-02_04:40:13 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The absence of Fremen in the later books make them a bit of a drag for me...

2017-06-02_04:47:21 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: in place of fremen you have people even more fanatical however

2017-06-02_04:47:40 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: personally I don't think I especially love the fremen more than any other group

2017-06-02_04:48:07 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I'm really glad the last two books focus more on the Bene Gesserit, they've always been a faction that intrigues me

2017-06-02_09:31:01 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Did the BG have bashar's during Muad dib's time? Or is that post GodEmepror?

Anddd in the ending of Messiah how does Leto II project his vision to Paul? That is never explained right? Or is it a Kwistatz to Kwitsatz connection?

2017-06-02_10:03:42 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: This is post God-Emperor. There is a deep mutation of the BG, which assumes more political power

2017-06-02_10:05:06 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Ah..yes... they finally decided to get more "hands-on"

2017-06-02_11:53:23 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Honestly, never explained how it did

2017-06-02_13:03:41 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I think that is the only incident where someone display telepathy in the book

2017-06-02_13:05:41 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Is this because the Kwitsatz Haderach has powers that are unknown and even more power than previously imagined​

2017-06-02_13:06:28 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: But for some reason it does not feel out of place this sudden display of telepathic powers...it seemed more natural to me than Teg getting superpowers

2017-06-02_13:49:43 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Teg getting superpowers was odd but you have to remember, nothing like the T probe had ever existed

2017-06-02_13:50:13 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: This was new technology which brought forth new ability

2017-06-02_13:50:37 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Ah  ...yes that could be it... the Atreides genes react to everything 😃

2017-06-02_13:52:24 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I'm surprised more people don't react with hatred to the word Atreides

2017-06-02_13:54:01 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: the single dynasty responsible for most deaths in human history

2017-06-02_13:54:09 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: when compared with other dynasties that is

2017-06-02_13:58:31 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes..thats true..

2017-06-02_14:09:42 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I like to imagine some word creation occurred when they finally stopped ruling

2017-06-02_14:10:01 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Kinda like how there's tsar, czar, caesar, kaiser

2017-06-02_14:11:19 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Basically in the Dune universe if there's some new technology or chemical don't ask someone with Atreides genes to try it out

2017-06-02_14:11:28 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Lmao

2017-06-02_14:11:57 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: "Hey John Atreides, wanna try this new coffee blend from the Scattering?"

2017-06-02_14:12:09 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: *John Atreides phases through the wall*

2017-06-02_15:03:35 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: lol 😃

2017-06-02_15:07:00 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The problems that the god empeor foresaw will be a real problem when we start colonizing other planets.  imagine a large planet that has enough resources to feed a very large population the inhabitants of the planet will not have a lot of incentives to keep improving the technology.  making them susceptible some future epidemic or aliens or whatever.   the survival of species is ensured only when we keep evolving

2017-06-02_15:10:28 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: I think people will still be incentivized to improve

2017-06-02_15:11:50 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: It doesn't require threat of death to get people to work

2017-06-02_15:12:11 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Even if all my basic needs were met, I'd still take a job. Because I want to improve my community

2017-06-03_21:12:07 GMT | 297946912685031424 | anothernewone2: Was Leto II aware of the Jews?  I'm just wondering if they got one over on him by maintaining their sect throughout his Tyranny.   Either way, his aim was to change the entire human species but there is no individual in real life that can tyrannize the ultra-rich to make them change for the better.

2017-06-03_21:12:43 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: He probably was aware and found them to not be an issue

2017-06-03_21:13:36 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I think that Leto II wasnt concerned with the smaller sects..say for example one person wanted to practice a new religion..as long as it was done in private.and he didnt preach Leto II wasnt concerned

2017-06-03_21:19:20 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: He surely knew. And probably foresaw the role Rebecca would play in the far future of his Golden Path. Either that or Frank Herbert had no clue, when writing GEoD, that he would one day include Jews in a future Dune book.

2017-06-03_21:20:02 GMT | 189879768886411264 | weavile: Didn't the Jews have Siona blood?

2017-06-04_07:29:22 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: they do

2017-06-04_07:29:59 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Considering the jew origin is said to be transmitted through the mother, that means some women looked for Siona male descendants

2017-06-04_09:56:19 GMT | 320671940673273857 | ionah: I think he thereafter included Jews in the story as to 'retore balance' in the use of religion's references in the text.

2017-06-04_09:58:47 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The Jews maintained their rituals/identity thousands o f years after Christianty, Islam, Hinduism lost their identity and became merged. I see it as FHeerbert's authorial comment on the nature of Judaism

2017-06-04_09:59:59 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: After having faced the Holocaust which other religions didnt face to that extent they were better able to survive Muad Dib's Jihad and other upheavals through history

2017-06-04_10:00:32 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: This is my interpretation, ofcourse..

2017-06-04_10:06:32 GMT | 320671940673273857 | ionah: well, Judaism is mentionned in the later books a bit as a 'deux ex' and appears to me as bit stereotyped . I see it more like a 'narrative tool' .  fundemmentally I'm not convinced by the relevance of the reference to Judaism at this point of the story. I might read it again just to see if I'm missing something here...

2017-06-04_10:06:34 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **ionah leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/320865908690124800/levelup.png

2017-06-04_10:12:41 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: It;s definitely a spur of the moment thing- and stereotyped as well....but the I find it interesting that all other religions don't exist by themselves--as in there is no christianity just the OC Bible...but the Jewish faith is intact.. and somehow helpful and adept at survivng and helping others escape "authority figures"...

2017-06-04_14:51:18 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I personnaly consider the jews to be put in Chapterhouse a mirrors

2017-06-04_14:51:36 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Everything is about the Bene Gesserit : its existence, its essence.

2017-06-04_14:51:53 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: The, we can define the Bene gesserit through their relationships. Let's take a look

2017-06-04_14:53:22 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Like the Jews, they are a secret society that resolves about women : the inheritage comes from women, some "traditions" and immensely old collective memory

2017-06-04_14:54:36 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Like the Bene Tleilax, they share a prominent part in politics and govern ; Like the Tleilaxu masters, they have access to another memory and their very conception of time spreads on thousands of years

2017-06-04_14:54:50 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Plus the importance on genetics

2017-06-04_14:55:17 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: hmmmm, there's a few weird things about dune in the later books in terms of the judaism

2017-06-04_14:55:23 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: ill chime in as a jewish fan XD

2017-06-04_14:55:31 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Like the Honored Matres, they govern/have a prominent part in politics.

2017-06-04_14:55:36 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I actually moved to the middle east to work with bedouin... i prolly obsessed over these bookcs too much XD

2017-06-04_14:55:36 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Yeah, go on ^^

2017-06-04_14:55:53 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: His treatment of someone jewish is very stereotyped

2017-06-04_14:55:56 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: That is an interesting view. Frank Herbert himself hints that the BG and the Jews are allied since a very long time.

2017-06-04_14:56:00 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: especially based off european judaism

2017-06-04_14:56:05 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: its very strange they had a rabbi, that far in the future

2017-06-04_14:56:11 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: when that's something have had for at most half their history

2017-06-04_14:56:12 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: if that

2017-06-04_14:56:24 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: so the idea of it being something to survive 10-20-30,000 into the future, eh

2017-06-04_14:56:31 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: so i side with whoever says its a narrative device

2017-06-04_14:56:37 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: just like the martial arts professor

2017-06-04_14:56:40 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: So the Honored Matres and the Bene Gesserit are expert in sexual techniques, prominence on women, reflexion on the form of government for both those organizations.

2017-06-04_14:56:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: what the hell is that char doing there?

2017-06-04_14:57:13 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Yeah that's another thing lackofsins, how did the judaism survive that far into the future... without specializing in anything

2017-06-04_14:57:16 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Anyway that's just my view. I do not know very much jewish culture, so I may be wrong.

2017-06-04_14:57:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: As for secret society.... hmmmmm... im on the fence for that

2017-06-04_14:57:55 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: <@315453128436744196> That's a very good question. I'd avoid it by saying they mastered the ability to hide ?

2017-06-04_14:58:09 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: funny considering jews i know today in israel are fighters XD

2017-06-04_14:58:18 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I feel like herbert chose the jewish archetype to be that of victim

2017-06-04_14:58:30 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: it wasnt necessary, and i dont think it added to the plot really

2017-06-04_14:58:35 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I base the "secret society" on the words carved in the stone, in Heretics, that the God-Emperor wrote himself. He accused the BG of dying like a secret society and nothing else

2017-06-04_14:58:47 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: oh no, i mean, jews being a secret society

2017-06-04_14:58:53 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: cause you can freely convert

2017-06-04_14:58:58 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: cant really do that as a bene geserit

2017-06-04_14:59:00 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: yes ?

2017-06-04_14:59:43 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but then again

2017-06-04_14:59:53 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: my g/f here is pushing me to learn hebrew so when we go travel we can speak it so no one understands

2017-06-04_15:00:08 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and it is really fascinating when i go traveling, and she can just find the other israelis

2017-06-04_15:00:15 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: so, i suppose there is some element of secretiveness

2017-06-04_15:00:23 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but I guess as someone jewish i dont get an outsider treatment

2017-06-04_15:00:30 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but then again id never treat someone as a non-jew

2017-06-04_15:00:35 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: no clue what that would even be like

2017-06-04_15:01:02 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: As I said, this was my personal take. I agree that the Bene Tleilax resembles a secret society too, so adding the Jews might have been useless

2017-06-04_15:01:16 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I feel its like the martial arts professor

2017-06-04_15:01:21 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: since there was already a group for that

2017-06-04_15:01:29 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: herbert had an interest in it at the time, so worked it into the novels

2017-06-04_15:01:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: yeah that's why id also say it wasnt really useful for anything

2017-06-04_15:01:51 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@315453128436744196> You actually c=looked for Bedouins becuase you liked the Dune books? <:baron:304498979310141441> ?

2017-06-04_15:01:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: they were just kind of there and shoehorned into their roles within the plot

2017-06-04_15:01:56 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: haha yeah

2017-06-04_15:02:01 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i didnt look for them

2017-06-04_15:02:06 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i taught english to them at abu kaf and lived with them for awhile

2017-06-04_15:02:14 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: out in the negev region

2017-06-04_15:02:21 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: same bedouin that overthrew the ottoman empire

2017-06-04_15:02:22 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **Aborschel leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/320940351894585344/levelup.png

2017-06-04_15:02:26 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: tho they're a lot different now

2017-06-04_15:02:29 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: You are a much hardcore fan than me 😃

2017-06-04_15:02:43 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: At most I will lokk for a rare first edition :0

2017-06-04_15:02:47 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: mmmmmm, i went through a drug phase, and the books spoke to me

2017-06-04_15:03:13 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: well seems you were still on drugs if books spoke to you xD

2017-06-04_15:03:13 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i also run a botanical garden out here, and am working on AWH

2017-06-04_15:03:16 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: interesting... FHerbert himself conceived some of the ideas while on mushrooms 😃

2017-06-04_15:03:18 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: you could say i kinda live these books

2017-06-04_15:03:28 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: And that's a good thing !

2017-06-04_15:03:36 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: lol hash is nice?

2017-06-04_15:03:41 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: dont drink anymore if it matters

2017-06-04_15:04:01 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but there are some pretty big differences between bedouin and fremen

2017-06-04_15:04:05 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: at least the guys i live near

2017-06-04_15:04:20 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: of course. Today, Fremen would be like terrorists maybe.

2017-06-04_15:04:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: perhaps, but i mean there's more subtle differences

2017-06-04_15:04:47 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but he also nailed some things pretty oddly

2017-06-04_15:04:54 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: like, i wish in the books he had made the fremen extremely pushy

2017-06-04_15:05:05 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and some form of camels or pack beast that was prevalent

2017-06-04_15:05:10 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: cause literally all the bedouin have camels

2017-06-04_15:05:18 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: they let them wander at night and they wander into our town

2017-06-04_15:05:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: they're like deer, but they can just go grab a camel and ride it

2017-06-04_15:05:45 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: kinda wish coffee had been made a bigger deal lol

2017-06-04_15:05:47 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: ^^the worms

2017-06-04_15:05:55 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: lel yeah

2017-06-04_15:05:59 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: those would be cool out here XD

2017-06-04_15:06:07 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: instead im stuck with a bajillion and 1 cats

2017-06-04_15:06:41 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Here, ill toss y'all some photos if you want to see

2017-06-04_15:06:53 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Go ahead 😃

2017-06-04_15:07:01 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: http://imgur.com/6NUfsbG botanical garden im building out here

2017-06-04_15:07:12 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: damn

2017-06-04_15:07:14 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: http://imgur.com/gl2IASp

2017-06-04_15:07:19 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: that's a amazing photo

2017-06-04_15:08:03 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Chad

2017-06-04_15:08:03 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: https://imgur.com/gallery/lY9FD

2017-06-04_15:08:23 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: playing WoW on chad

2017-06-04_15:08:24 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: https://imgur.com/gallery/nH8AK

2017-06-04_15:08:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: This bugger crashed a wedding i was at

2017-06-04_15:08:51 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: ^^was your mount in the game a camel as well

2017-06-04_15:08:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: https://imgur.com/gallery/Vqvrk4c

2017-06-04_15:08:57 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: nah, i never got that

2017-06-04_15:09:09 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i did send the photo to blizzard and they thought it hilarious

2017-06-04_15:09:12 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but, no mount

2017-06-04_15:09:39 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: desert traffic jam :https://imgur.com/gallery/911ygEH

2017-06-04_15:09:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: https://imgur.com/gallery/911ygEH

2017-06-04_15:10:05 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: https://imgur.com/gallery/7xecU

2017-06-04_15:10:28 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: And when my mom visited broke both her legs XD

2017-06-04_15:10:28 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: https://imgur.com/gallery/1eDDD

2017-06-04_15:10:32 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: sorry i always find that hilarious

2017-06-04_16:35:16 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@315453128436744196> Do you have a blog documenting your adventures?

2017-06-04_20:41:56 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: such an adventure

2017-06-04_20:41:57 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **LackofSins leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/321025810964152330/levelup.png

2017-06-07_03:52:23 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Ummmm, yes actually, but I stopped writing once I actually emigrated, and one could argue that's when the fun things began

2017-06-07_03:52:25 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: hang tight and let me find it

2017-06-07_03:53:05 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: http://ajourneyinisrael.blogspot.co.il/2015/06/the-days-before.html

2017-06-07_03:53:25 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: its defunct more or less tho now. I have a few youtube channels Im working on, namely one for dune atm

2017-06-07_07:19:31 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@315453128436744196> Have you made any videos yet for the YT Channels?

2017-06-07_07:40:40 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Working on a basic 'what is spice' right now actually XD

2017-06-07_07:40:58 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: basically looking for as much artwork depicting dune as possible and it should be finished

2017-06-07_07:41:29 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: its 18 minutes long XD.

2017-06-07_10:49:03 GMT | 320671940673273857 | ionah: Great news!

2017-06-07_10:49:28 GMT | 320671940673273857 | ionah: Do you need help for the content?

2017-06-07_10:49:50 GMT | 320671940673273857 | ionah: For I see the discussion in the other channel

2017-06-07_10:58:59 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Id be willing to help to

2017-06-07_11:11:36 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Sure, right now im working on finding artwork to go with my speaking

2017-06-07_11:11:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: basically anything depicting spice would help

2017-06-07_11:12:03 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Kust type in cinnamon

2017-06-07_11:12:07 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Just*

2017-06-07_11:12:09 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: oh i have

2017-06-07_11:12:20 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but ive found other fans tend to have photos i wouldnt be able to find otherwise

2017-06-07_11:12:21 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: memes

2017-06-07_11:12:23 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: things like that

2017-06-07_11:12:24 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Have you looked up the cinnamon mines yet?

2017-06-07_11:12:34 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: no?

2017-06-07_11:12:44 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@315453128436744196> Go to <#300349880394579968> there is a cinnamon challenge meme there you may use in the video

2017-06-07_11:12:46 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh look up billy and mandy

2017-06-07_11:13:06 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: It was a somewhat edgy kids show here in the US

2017-06-07_11:13:11 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: oh lord, i already make a joke about doing the cinnamon challenge in the vid

2017-06-07_11:13:23 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: you can use that meme

2017-06-07_11:13:25 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: huh only problem is spice isnt mined really lol

2017-06-07_11:13:37 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: They did an episode which was essentially a retelling of God Emperor of Dune and they showed "cinnamon mines"

2017-06-07_11:14:09 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Cinnamon was the source of the characters power and thats where they got it.

2017-06-07_11:14:09 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: ehhhhhhh i think its a pretty common joke spice=cinnamon challenge lol

2017-06-07_11:14:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes..even the book mentions that Spice tasted like Cinnamon

2017-06-07_11:14:46 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: looks like

2017-06-07_11:14:47 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: feels like

2017-06-07_11:14:58 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: http://grimadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Mandy_the_Merciless

2017-06-07_11:14:59 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: tho this video kind of goes a bit more into specifics

2017-06-07_11:15:10 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: had a microbiologist take a look at the spice-melange chemical

2017-06-07_11:15:13 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: The character becomes a worm!lol

2017-06-07_11:15:20 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: interesting

2017-06-07_11:15:30 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: yeah he said somebody has way too much time on their hands

2017-06-07_11:15:34 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: lol

2017-06-07_11:15:47 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: im lucky my padre was a military microbiologist for so long

2017-06-07_11:15:55 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: BL3/4 labs

2017-06-07_11:16:11 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: doctorate from cornell. so that's handy if we're talking about a drug lol

2017-06-07_11:16:19 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but yeah he basically says none of it makes sense

2017-06-07_11:16:25 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: in terms of chemistry

2017-06-07_11:16:45 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: the prescience aspect?

2017-06-07_11:16:56 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: no like, take a look at the actual molecule for spice

2017-06-07_11:17:03 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: none of it would work in how its configured

2017-06-07_11:17:12 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: like if someone wanted to create spice somehow in the real world

2017-06-07_11:17:17 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: do not use this diagram

2017-06-07_11:17:24 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-N_2J48y6nU0/VUQ1HgZiKUI/AAAAAAAAAZE/QMOxfMLFsF0/w506-h750/spice%2Bmelange.png

2017-06-07_11:18:07 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but it was neat having someone who yknow, makes this kind of stuff for vaccines and whathaveyou actually look at that and say what they think

2017-06-07_11:18:29 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: molecular biochemistry/microbiology

2017-06-07_11:18:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: thats kind of what the video goes into

2017-06-07_11:18:53 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: well and how spice is made, and what it does

2017-06-07_11:19:09 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and i figure ill do a video on each of the major characters

2017-06-07_11:19:14 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: that should pretty much keep me busy

2017-06-07_11:24:42 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@315453128436744196> Have you visited this blog? https://dunespice.wordpress.com/

2017-06-07_11:25:38 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: no, am now. nice

2017-06-07_11:26:36 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: actually here's a question im waiting to get an answer on

2017-06-07_11:26:48 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: given spice's molecular weight changes from like

2017-06-07_11:26:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: hang on let me get the number

2017-06-07_11:27:36 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: ah ok 100x10^6 to 2x10...

2017-06-07_11:27:40 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: that's a pretty big difference

2017-06-07_11:27:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and apparently it's weight changes depending how you measure it

2017-06-07_11:28:08 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: maybe the encyclopedia is a bit vague, or wrong?

2017-06-07_11:28:13 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but it's curious a substances can do that

2017-06-07_11:28:20 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: so maybe im just not understanding what that range can mean

2017-06-07_11:28:32 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: im an archaeologist by trade, so chemistry and stuff I can get wrong

2017-06-07_11:28:38 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: butttttt he's busy so im still waiting

2017-06-07_11:49:46 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The Dune encyclopedia sometimes contadicts information from the F.Herbert books

2017-06-07_12:13:45 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Not as much as the BH/KJA books

2017-06-07_12:19:32 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: "Tell me about the waters of your homeworld, Usul"  -----that sentence has more romance in it than the whole "Twilight" series 😃

2017-06-07_12:37:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I didnt mind his books. Looking at the memes hes a bit of an ass tho

2017-06-07_12:37:58 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: 'we have to protect the image of the dune universe'

2017-06-07_12:38:06 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: bleh, ironic.

2017-06-07_12:41:50 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Hey, which do you guys think is a more faithful depiction of the navigator?

2017-06-07_12:42:12 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@315453128436744196> We already had a discussion on this

2017-06-07_12:42:13 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: or is the most

2017-06-07_12:42:18 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: we did?

2017-06-07_12:42:23 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: just search for navigator on the top-right

2017-06-07_12:42:32 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I mean before you joined

2017-06-07_12:44:08 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i found this, and i honestly its the best ive come across

2017-06-07_12:44:26 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: https://hu.pinterest.com/pin/544865254900853406/

2017-06-07_12:44:35 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: trying to find something between it and the lynchean version

2017-06-07_12:44:39 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: just as alternative pics

2017-06-07_12:46:32 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: ^^ the one on far right looks hideous

2017-06-07_12:46:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: 😃

2017-06-07_12:46:52 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Yeah, but honestly it's how i imagined it more or less

2017-06-07_12:47:05 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i say the dune version when young, but i always figured they'd be more... streamlined for space than lumpy

2017-06-07_12:47:10 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: saw*

2017-06-07_12:47:29 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: never played dune 2000 tho

2017-06-07_12:47:35 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: played whatever one the westwood one had

2017-06-07_12:47:45 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but i think dune 2000 has the fish/bat as a navigator

2017-06-07_14:59:13 GMT | 297946912685031424 | anothernewone2: I have to recheck the page before asking specific questions but theres this bit I just got to in god emperor where leto talks to duncan about rape and duncan is taken aback by something, its just around the time when duncan reveals that he is homophobic which was a bummer but in a way that effected me which I admired.

2017-06-07_18:30:37 GMT | 320671940673273857 | ionah: yes. it is happening. Duncan is a stud. 😅

2017-06-07_19:01:44 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: ^^now it makes sense why he only wanted Duncans around him 😄

2017-06-07_19:01:46 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **dborta leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/322087760838000642/levelup.png

2017-06-07_19:05:45 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Anyone else want to see Benecio Del Toro or javier BArdem playing any role in a Dune movie?

2017-06-08_04:55:44 GMT | 288234041025495041 | splorg: Either one could do a decent Stilgar

2017-06-08_05:13:45 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes definitely, their screen presence is awesome

2017-06-08_06:15:21 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: huh, I see him more as a Gurney. Maybe.

2017-06-08_06:16:06 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: These guys can literally play any role

2017-06-08_06:16:28 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Ionno about if they could play Alia...

2017-06-08_06:16:38 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: would be entertaining to have vin diesel do the worm vocals tho XD

2017-06-08_06:56:05 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@174539900102639617> yeah but those books are canon and the encyclopedia isnt lol

2017-06-08_07:06:23 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: It was long ago a debate on our forum. We decided that, even if Frank Herbert gave his approval to the DE, his later works prove that he didn't recognize it as canon.

2017-06-08_07:23:23 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@318732371115507712> The Dune Encyclopedia feels more canon to me than any of BH and KJA books ever will 😃

2017-06-08_07:51:42 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: See i dont agree

2017-06-08_07:52:06 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: The encyclopedia is supposed to be written in the dune universe

2017-06-08_07:52:30 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And its getting in universe thinfs wrong so i just see it as a fan project

2017-06-08_08:32:04 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> It's a fan project ..made by people who didnt want to make a quick buck of it... 😃

2017-06-08_08:33:08 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I appreciate the spirit behind it...

2017-06-08_08:34:48 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: speaking of

2017-06-08_08:34:49 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **Aborschel leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/322292373864579072/levelup.png

2017-06-08_08:36:18 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I dont mean that negatively though

2017-06-08_08:36:38 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i mean i think i disagree

2017-06-08_08:36:43 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but yknow how in GeoD

2017-06-08_08:36:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: they have the oral history, and the actual history?

2017-06-08_08:36:58 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: im guessing he gave it a pass along the lines of that

2017-06-08_08:37:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: where i might have issue

2017-06-08_08:37:36 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: is if its canon that means the depictions within it are canon

2017-06-08_08:37:41 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and FH didnt come up those directly

2017-06-08_08:37:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: so

2017-06-08_08:37:52 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: when you have people like his son saying 'protecting the image'

2017-06-08_08:38:06 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I wonder if maybe that's what limits dune from seeping directly into popular culture

2017-06-08_08:38:16 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i mean dont get me wrong you see its influence in aliens and star wars

2017-06-08_08:38:21 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but its kinda hard to find people who sit down to read it

2017-06-08_08:38:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and when they then shut down anybody who produces artwork based on it unless they get paid...

2017-06-08_08:38:55 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: im not sure the depictions and whathaveyou are accurate at that point

2017-06-08_08:39:01 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: like how in lotr its fairly spot in some ways

2017-06-08_08:39:12 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: im not certain dune is like that

2017-06-08_08:39:21 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: has been given that treatment?

2017-06-08_08:39:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: ionno my engrish sucks today

2017-06-08_09:03:15 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Thats an interesting view

2017-06-08_09:03:38 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I always figured dune never broke into the mainstream bc of how complex it is.

2017-06-08_09:04:03 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Like when you compare it to something like star wars theres immensely more thought put into dune than star wars

2017-06-08_09:04:33 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: oh i meant moreso

2017-06-08_09:04:39 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: you can see its influence on other things that went mainstream

2017-06-08_09:04:55 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> All hardcore Dune fans who feel that they are Mentats after reading Dune are usually are...bcoz to finish the whole series, understand it and reread it would more often than not require an above average IQ 😃

2017-06-08_09:04:58 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but as you said... its probably far too complex for a lot of people as they are unfortunately. I mean... GeoD changed my worldview entirely lol

2017-06-08_09:05:12 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: ah not saying that per se

2017-06-08_09:05:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but if you read the books and you begin to think about your definition of god or how you can affect the nvironment

2017-06-08_09:05:35 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: id say you probably have a good head on your shoulders and are worth talking to

2017-06-08_09:05:51 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But is it a bad thing that it never got as big as star wars?

2017-06-08_09:05:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and it goes deeper than that

2017-06-08_09:05:53 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i mean...

2017-06-08_09:05:57 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: its theory of time is unique

2017-06-08_09:06:01 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: way ahead of its time honestly

2017-06-08_09:06:08 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: the idea of time being a ripple rather than a singular direction

2017-06-08_09:06:16 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: well... thats different for the 1960s

2017-06-08_09:06:46 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and then you have things like the bene geserit muscle control

2017-06-08_09:06:49 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: how possible is that?

2017-06-08_09:07:03 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: ive done martial arts for decades, some aspects of that are certainly trainable and feasible

2017-06-08_09:07:35 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: everything about dune, to me, is taking something to a logical extreme

2017-06-08_09:07:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: weaving it together, and then asking the viewer how their perspective compares

2017-06-08_09:07:47 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I have observed people who could bring down their heart rates through deep breathing and meditation..so prana-bindu is not entirely unfeasible

2017-06-08_09:07:55 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i can do that and practice tanto

2017-06-08_09:08:05 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: individual muscle control might be possible even

2017-06-08_09:08:16 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: sorry blanking on my language

2017-06-08_09:08:17 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: meant tummo

2017-06-08_09:08:18 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: apology

2017-06-08_09:08:31 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Well i feel like in those cases while itnl may not be possible now, it may be 10000 years from now

2017-06-08_09:08:32 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: anything with enough practice is frankly achievable in my opinion

2017-06-08_09:08:40 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: well thats what im saying

2017-06-08_09:08:49 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: imagine if you had a dedicated martial art worked on for 10,000 years by a society

2017-06-08_09:08:54 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and kept intact from one generation to the next

2017-06-08_09:09:01 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh i dont mean that way

2017-06-08_09:09:03 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: that would make reaching those heights a looooot easier

2017-06-08_09:09:14 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I meamt evolution of human physiology

2017-06-08_09:09:21 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: oh theres that

2017-06-08_09:09:29 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: im always curious how we'll tackle the gravity problem in the future

2017-06-08_09:10:02 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: cause being on mars or other places is fine... but if that gravity is off at all our bodies just get fuxed

2017-06-08_09:10:08 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: As in planets or artificial?

2017-06-08_09:10:09 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: living there is the problem lol

2017-06-08_09:10:11 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i suppose both

2017-06-08_09:10:17 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i always like what robert sawyer came up with

2017-06-08_09:10:24 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: artificially reducing a planets gravity

2017-06-08_09:10:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: also liked when they hack the machines causing it and make gravity go back to normal and it just fucks everything up lol

2017-06-08_09:10:56 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: actually, almost everything by robert sawyer is pretty good come to think of it

2017-06-08_09:11:04 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: his books also explore consciousness with the depth of dune

2017-06-08_09:11:08 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: usually less, sometimes more

2017-06-08_09:11:56 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: btw, the prana-bindu meditation, meditation overall is awesome. I wish more people did it. I sincerely feel the world would be a better place. More level headed at times at least.

2017-06-08_09:12:10 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I have a friend from the army with some pretty messed up ptsd and its doing wonders for him

2017-06-08_09:12:24 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: so then theres that!

2017-06-08_09:12:34 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: people who may read the book and take up new activities because of it that improve their lives

2017-06-08_09:12:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: wouldnt call em a mentat... but yknow, i wouldnt have ever ridden a camel if not for the book

2017-06-08_09:13:07 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Well i dont thino artificial is an issue, its cancelling ot out that is the issue.

2017-06-08_09:13:18 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: or adding

2017-06-08_09:13:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: how big was arrakis?

2017-06-08_09:13:45 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Well i mean you can have gravity on a ship based on motion

2017-06-08_09:13:48 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: in comparison to earth

2017-06-08_09:14:04 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i always thought it was 2-3 times bigger

2017-06-08_09:14:04 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But if you wajt to go fast you have to find a way to cancel it outnornitnkills those inside.

2017-06-08_09:14:12 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Think of the ship from Ascension

2017-06-08_09:14:33 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But in regards to planets, i think that will only be an issue if we colonize them

2017-06-08_09:14:39 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Im not convinced we will

2017-06-08_09:14:49 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: im not either

2017-06-08_09:14:53 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: the gravity problem is the biggest

2017-06-08_09:14:59 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: im not sure its overcomable

2017-06-08_09:15:17 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I mean if you can build things like the colonies in the gundam series, why would ypu need a planet?

2017-06-08_09:15:26 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: yeah there's that

2017-06-08_09:15:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: frankly it'd probably only be what, machines that would need to go to other worlds for raw materials?

2017-06-08_09:15:55 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: im not saying humanity wont spread through the stars

2017-06-08_09:15:59 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i absolutely think thatll happen

2017-06-08_09:16:09 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I mean, im not sure if you guys know much about the plpt to gundam but a large plot point is whether earth shpuld be abandoned in favor 9f living in artificial colonies

2017-06-08_09:16:11 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but settle other planets im not sure given our physiology and the gravity issue its possible

2017-06-08_09:16:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: mmm those are always good stories

2017-06-08_09:16:30 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: like the uploading

2017-06-08_09:16:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: most of humanity wants to upload, some dont

2017-06-08_09:16:57 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Upload?

2017-06-08_09:17:08 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: consciousness into computers for simulated afterlife

2017-06-08_09:17:11 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: or immortality

2017-06-08_09:17:25 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: its the age old question of how much should we change

2017-06-08_09:17:30 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: thats what i usually get out of it

2017-06-08_09:17:59 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh i dont like the thought of that at all. Sounds to complicated lol

2017-06-08_09:18:04 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Once ur consciuosness is uploaded... it becomes a seperate entity...and will evolve itself depending upon the virtual stimuli provided..thats my view anysayws

2017-06-08_09:18:15 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: yeah i know what you mean

2017-06-08_09:18:16 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Like legally alone it sounds awful lpl

2017-06-08_09:18:22 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I have a short story ive been working on for ionno

2017-06-08_09:18:24 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: 2 years

2017-06-08_09:18:31 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: no real way to make it perfect lol

2017-06-08_09:18:43 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: yeah and what happens if 99% of humanity uploads?

2017-06-08_09:18:48 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i always liked that question

2017-06-08_09:18:52 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: what about the few who choose not to

2017-06-08_09:19:05 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: they seem more interesting to me than those who do

2017-06-08_09:30:31 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Have you seen Caprica? Thats a bug plot point

2017-06-08_09:30:34 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Big*

2017-06-08_09:43:03 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: no, never heard of it XD

2017-06-08_09:43:16 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: going to wiki it when i get back from picking up this package from godknowswhere came from

2017-06-08_10:15:23 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: 1) The debate on canon is complicated. Take the extended Star Wars Universe that was completely destroyed when SW 7 came out

2017-06-08_10:16:05 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: 2) There's an estimation on Arrakis in the first book, gonna try to find it

2017-06-08_10:17:40 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: 3) I personnally consider fanfiction, fanmade work to be one (not the) of the indicators that something is great. For exemple, many pokémon fangames that Nintendo tries to shut off when they get too big. Some even attain the quality of "canon" games.

2017-06-08_10:18:46 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: So I find it quite sad that nobody can do some fan arts or so in the Dune universe, like Miles Greb who had to secretly give his Dune comic after Brian Herbert told him not to

2017-06-08_10:20:20 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: And finally, 4) you are talking, <@315453128436744196> , about what happens if 99% of humanity goes on the web, and you'd find more interesting the 1% left. That's almost exactly what FH did in GEoD, when he says that the Emperor is the only thing moving. The only spectacle. The only one.

2017-06-08_10:21:32 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I am glad they got rid of the Star Wars EU... :).... too much lame stuff... and granted its very very hard to top the original star wars in terms of story quality, level of imagination...etc... but EU was 99 percent mediocre stuff with 1 percent good stuff

2017-06-08_10:22:09 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Like some *coughs* KJA stuff *coughs*

2017-06-08_10:23:01 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I can understand and empathise when a preteen or teen writes mediocre fan-fic... but a professional writer should really know better

2017-06-08_10:23:25 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: And never really got into this EU btw... It's just that it's some work that was useless after all

2017-06-08_10:24:16 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I am persoanlly against all-dilution of the original intellectual property....and the moneygrab that is publication of unfinished tales of famous authors (cough *Tolkein*)

2017-06-08_10:25:53 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Yup. That what continues most great universes. Money. Speaking at some franchises today (Fast and Furious, BH, Tolkien, etc...)

2017-06-08_10:29:02 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: In India...all these second-hand bookshops have hordes of Star Wars EU novels.... it put food on the table for many writers granted and some readers  do like them..... Well as far as fast and the furious is concerned there is not much to dilute in terms of intellectual property 😃

2017-06-08_10:30:49 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I meant it is continuing because money is flowing

2017-06-08_10:31:28 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Its a shame... even the gaming industry has fallen prey to it...

2017-06-08_10:32:09 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: all these new call of duties, and battlefields...reskins with no innovation in gameplay..just release the same game with slightly improved gfx

2017-06-08_10:34:32 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@315453128436744196> its a spinoff series of Battlestar Galactica, but a big theme is the potentiality of the online world being "heaven"

2017-06-08_10:35:47 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> all good sci-fi series get cancelled early.."Almost Human", "Firefly" 😃

2017-06-08_10:35:57 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Never saw either lol

2017-06-08_10:36:38 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But i loved caprica. I really loved BSG in general. I got the "Caprica Seal" as a tattoo.

2017-06-08_10:37:33 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: For those who havent seen it, in BSG there are 12 human himeworlds that are named after the zodiac signs. Caprica is the "capricorn planet" so the symbol is a capricorn based one

2017-06-08_10:45:52 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@230009305326157825> I've thought of watching firefly, but its been so built up for me that if im worried i wont likenit as my expectations are so high

2017-06-08_10:52:49 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> people either hate it or love it.. :0

2017-06-08_10:52:53 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: 😃

2017-06-08_11:06:05 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: See ive never heard anyone talk bad on it

2017-06-08_11:06:07 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **chopper085 leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/322330447117811713/levelup.png

2017-06-08_11:06:22 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Almost human looked to soap oprea-y to me

2017-06-08_11:07:15 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yup it looks like a generic show..but still pretty decent..

2017-06-08_11:07:37 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: i love karl urban

2017-06-08_11:07:45 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Also which one? Theres a brit version and americanski

2017-06-08_11:07:57 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: the karl urban one?

2017-06-08_11:08:11 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh im sorry idk who that is

2017-06-08_11:08:30 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiK5fDuja7UAhXIQY8KHd4zCuQQFghQMAY&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Ftv-and-radio%2Ftvandradioblog%2F2014%2Fmay%2F07%2Falmost-human-one-series-terminated-tv&usg=AFQjCNGnlRpSTfEUgRVJWFeZ-_HE5wio8w&sig2=X2iUqiO0Y_stKuvjNr3S4A

2017-06-08_11:08:38 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Im not exactly good with names or celebrities 😞

2017-06-08_11:08:50 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: haha..its ok

2017-06-08_11:09:03 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: the american one i suppose

2017-06-08_11:09:04 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh my god

2017-06-08_11:09:10 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Ive never heard of this lol

2017-06-08_11:09:21 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Im thinking of something else lol

2017-06-08_11:09:49 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: you were thinking of "Being Human"?

2017-06-08_11:09:51 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: BEING human

2017-06-08_11:09:54 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Yes lol

2017-06-08_11:10:00 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: That looked awful haha

2017-06-08_11:11:39 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: British TV feels weird to me..lol

2017-06-08_11:11:57 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i think thats generally a staple of good scifi

2017-06-08_11:12:08 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: its produced, if its actually good- it should be so ahead of its time that it flops

2017-06-08_11:12:20 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: lol..yeah ..sad but true

2017-06-08_11:12:26 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: the public zeitgeist always needs 2-3 decades to comprehend something new

2017-06-08_11:12:39 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@230009305326157825> im surprised i figured youd be more used to British tv than our own with bbc being bigger there than here

2017-06-08_11:12:58 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: lol i think with the interwebz its easy to be more into any tv

2017-06-08_11:13:07 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i watch a loooooot of japanese lately XD

2017-06-08_11:13:12 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh i meant growing up compared to now

2017-06-08_11:13:21 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: good ol days of cable tv XD

2017-06-08_11:13:25 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Pre interwebz

2017-06-08_11:13:29 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: you lie

2017-06-08_11:13:32 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: there was no such time

2017-06-08_11:13:42 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I call it The Before Times

2017-06-08_11:13:49 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Also known as 'The dark ages'

2017-06-08_11:14:07 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> well I grew up on "Boy Meets World" and "Superhuman Samurai--Cyber Squad"

2017-06-08_11:14:09 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: 😃

2017-06-08_11:14:23 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But yeah, at least to me british is always associated with at least scifi

2017-06-08_11:14:24 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: They were very popular in India

2017-06-08_11:14:38 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Boy meets world was a disgrace

2017-06-08_11:14:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: huh, as an american i always thought of british tv as associated with comedy

2017-06-08_11:14:48 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Isnt the latter power rangers?

2017-06-08_11:15:01 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: power rangers was japan

2017-06-08_11:15:04 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Eh, comedy, but to a lesser degree, Aborschel

2017-06-08_11:15:06 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: please tell me theres a british power rangers

2017-06-08_11:15:18 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: the memes demand it

2017-06-08_11:15:24 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: No i mean they were shown power rangers in japan. It just had a dif name

2017-06-08_11:15:38 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: its an old ass show

2017-06-08_11:15:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: like 6 decades or something over there

2017-06-08_11:16:16 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@315453128436744196> I have a gift for you

2017-06-08_11:16:19 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: https://youtu.be/ZxCg26VZ0bQ

2017-06-08_11:16:27 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: the super sentai in Japan ?

2017-06-08_11:16:37 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: oh sweet christ

2017-06-08_11:16:39 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: this is amazing

2017-06-08_11:16:42 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: That inspired american people to do their own "power rangers"

2017-06-08_11:16:49 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: amazingly terrible

2017-06-08_11:16:55 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: ahhhh ok i gotta see indian power rangers

2017-06-08_11:16:59 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: that sounds even better

2017-06-08_11:17:15 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Also, Battlestar Galatica s something to watch. Sadly, haven't yet ^^

2017-06-08_11:17:43 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: well by see... perhaps i mean watch one episode to see how batshit they are

2017-06-08_11:17:53 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i always love when different cultures do their own kind of takes on something

2017-06-08_11:17:55 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: its always ridiculous

2017-06-08_11:17:59 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: without fail

2017-06-08_11:17:59 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I went as one for halloween

2017-06-08_11:18:11 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Twas amazing

2017-06-08_11:18:12 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: HAHAHAHAHA

2017-06-08_11:18:41 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i miss halloween :[

2017-06-08_11:18:41 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Those mystic knights just look like power rangers mixed with the legend of the king arthur

2017-06-08_11:18:44 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I grew up with 1970s japanese children superheroes though. Ever hear of Ultraman?

2017-06-08_11:18:45 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: yeah i know

2017-06-08_11:18:47 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: its freaking awesome

2017-06-08_11:18:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and japan had power ranger samurai

2017-06-08_11:19:00 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: ninja/we/

2017-06-08_11:19:02 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Yeah they had a ton of those

2017-06-08_11:19:07 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: makes you wish america had a cowboy thing

2017-06-08_11:19:11 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: or ionno what germany would have

2017-06-08_11:19:12 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but france

2017-06-08_11:19:21 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i could see that being hilarious

2017-06-08_11:19:25 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: a russian version im sure must exist now

2017-06-08_11:19:36 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: no fighting, just bullet in head to megazord

2017-06-08_11:19:50 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: For me, this guy and godzilla were the shit https://youtu.be/4x7_DBzBetM

2017-06-08_11:20:00 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: France, just imagine a robot disguised a a chef, throwing baguettes xD

2017-06-08_11:20:04 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: hah, you ever like felix the cat?

2017-06-08_11:20:13 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@315453128436744196> there is actually a russian cowboy genre

2017-06-08_11:20:15 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i know right? I had the baguette theme also going mentally

2017-06-08_11:20:20 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: russian cowboy is one thing

2017-06-08_11:20:26 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: russian power ranger is something entirely different

2017-06-08_11:20:31 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@315453128436744196> this is for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nUI_HHhnOM

2017-06-08_11:20:33 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and potentially the greatest thing evre conceived of

2017-06-08_11:20:36 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: It was incredibly popular

2017-06-08_11:20:56 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Also, have you seen the Bollywood Superman and spiderman ?

2017-06-08_11:21:02 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: why does he have a star of david

2017-06-08_11:21:04 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: that i have seen

2017-06-08_11:21:07 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: that was entertaining

2017-06-08_11:21:12 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Where spiderman is just spiderwoman

2017-06-08_11:21:20 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: oh no, i think im thinking of the south american version

2017-06-08_11:21:26 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: from like the 80s

2017-06-08_11:21:31 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i forget when, it was bad

2017-06-08_11:21:34 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I don't understand

2017-06-08_11:21:47 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_8EtNaqIbI

2017-06-08_11:21:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: in the video the dudes symbol on his chest is a star of david XD

2017-06-08_11:21:53 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: jewish power ranger

2017-06-08_11:22:08 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Why is music so popular in indian media?

2017-06-08_11:22:10 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: take a special look at Superman armpit

2017-06-08_11:22:34 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@315453128436744196> actually he is not a poweranger..and that's not the star of david

2017-06-08_11:22:36 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: The crotch grab lift

2017-06-08_11:22:49 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: looks like one to me XD

2017-06-08_11:23:11 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Yeah it is golden

2017-06-08_11:23:39 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: the thunderbolt is krishna?

2017-06-08_11:23:43 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: so its like a krishna star

2017-06-08_11:24:01 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: ishtar commands

2017-06-08_11:24:17 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: That design star is seen elsewhere..we call it something else will find out

2017-06-08_11:24:19 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: power rangers XD. why i became a martial artist

2017-06-08_11:24:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: to learn how to chop someones head off and how to do a double front kick

2017-06-08_11:27:21 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Watched the movie that came out earlier this year ?

2017-06-08_11:27:25 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: actually no

2017-06-08_11:27:37 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I really enjoyed it surprisingly

2017-06-08_11:27:49 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I was expecting something awful

2017-06-08_11:27:49 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I know jason lee scott, I kinda only watch things PR related if hes in it cause hes a cool guy

2017-06-08_11:27:58 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but i still enjoy the hell out of the culture

2017-06-08_11:28:04 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and it is why i originally got into praciticing

2017-06-08_11:28:19 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I think the movie was crap, but I enjoyed it, expecting no better

2017-06-08_11:28:22 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: ionno, i feel like the later versions kind of spit on his character

2017-06-08_11:28:33 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: and damn they did place the "Go, go power rangers !"

2017-06-08_11:29:00 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: feels dumb to get invested in it like that but i have some bizarre history with the show

2017-06-08_11:29:01 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: That feels like an achievment in itself

2017-06-08_11:29:07 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: ah ?

2017-06-08_11:29:22 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: well when I was 3 I was watching power rangers and wanted to start practicing

2017-06-08_11:29:29 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: right? red power ranger was my favorite

2017-06-08_11:29:36 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: anyways after 10 years I got hosed in a street fight

2017-06-08_11:29:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and thought it shit I was supposedly dan ranked but couldnt really do anything

2017-06-08_11:29:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: so I went out and hunted down for a better martial art school

2017-06-08_11:29:52 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and found one

2017-06-08_11:29:56 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: these guys trained monsters lol

2017-06-08_11:30:03 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: anyways i ended up getting another black belt there

2017-06-08_11:30:07 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: my 3rd 1st dan

2017-06-08_11:30:11 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and after he retired

2017-06-08_11:30:12 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: good job

2017-06-08_11:30:29 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I learned that was the school Jason lee Scott had attended before moving to california, getting into acting, and then becoming a power ranger for a few years

2017-06-08_11:30:41 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: he actually moved back to the dc area and is an emt and comes to our get together barbecues whatnot

2017-06-08_11:30:42 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: and no wonder you couldn't do anything. Most people learn how to fight people, not themselves. Fear...

2017-06-08_11:30:46 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: well with them, im not there anymore

2017-06-08_11:31:00 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but hes a cool dude

2017-06-08_11:31:01 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: kinda fat now

2017-06-08_11:31:04 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Oh

2017-06-08_11:31:05 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but he can still swing a punch

2017-06-08_11:31:08 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: he stopped training ?

2017-06-08_11:31:19 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: oh yeah, more or less fifteen...twenty years ago

2017-06-08_11:31:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: only the white power ranger was yknow, somebody who had made it their life career

2017-06-08_11:31:41 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: power rangers bring swords to gun/monster fights

2017-06-08_11:31:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: he did it as a teenager, and then when he became an actor could still do a lot of the stuff he'd been taught by m.khan

2017-06-08_11:31:52 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: look at his actual kicking, punching technique

2017-06-08_11:31:54 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: its chung do kwan tkd

2017-06-08_11:31:58 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: which he learned in the dc area

2017-06-08_11:32:10 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: our school is an off shoot of grandmaster rhee's schools

2017-06-08_11:32:18 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: basically master rhee trained lee, who trained khan who trained Jason

2017-06-08_11:32:39 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: d.c. area, rough city, worth learning back in the 70s and 80s

2017-06-08_11:32:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: tho jason was from NOVA

2017-06-08_11:32:49 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: which is where i mainly used to live

2017-06-08_11:32:56 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: d.c. area is actually fantastically well connected if you're into martial arts

2017-06-08_11:33:02 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: he did his own stunts ?

2017-06-08_11:33:09 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: doubt it

2017-06-08_11:33:12 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i think if you see him doing it, yes

2017-06-08_11:33:21 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but usually they cut to the japanese filmography if i recall

2017-06-08_11:33:28 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but yknow he could do double front kick, backflip

2017-06-08_11:33:30 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: basic stuff

2017-06-08_11:33:40 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: khan's school didn't really focus on the flashy side of tkd

2017-06-08_11:33:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: they were more...

2017-06-08_11:33:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: cruel

2017-06-08_11:33:47 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: practical

2017-06-08_11:33:49 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: yes

2017-06-08_11:33:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: no need to jump if you dont need to

2017-06-08_11:33:54 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: it wasn't for show off

2017-06-08_11:33:59 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: here ill link a video of my first dan exam.

2017-06-08_11:34:02 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: it was to fight

2017-06-08_11:34:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I get my ass BEATEN

2017-06-08_11:34:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY7X57dCK5s&t=44s

2017-06-08_11:34:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i was... jeez, 15 then. 12 years ago XD

2017-06-08_11:34:54 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: o shit, my 10 year high school reunion is coming up i think...

2017-06-08_11:35:47 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Damn, the guy in red just in front of you is good

2017-06-08_11:35:53 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: he has an incredible balance

2017-06-08_11:36:48 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: But anyway we should have gone to the off-topic discussions

2017-06-08_11:37:20 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: ah true lol

2017-06-08_11:38:34 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: wow...awesome skill... he guy you were sparring with..was he korean?

2017-06-08_11:39:08 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: hah yeah

2017-06-08_11:39:11 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: fbi agent now

2017-06-08_11:39:30 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: the tall indian guy who clocked me in the back of the head passed away in a street race

2017-06-08_11:39:31 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: he was cool

2017-06-08_11:39:39 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: this is pretty brutal..they dont train like this anymore i suppose?

2017-06-08_11:39:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: during the vtech shooting the police had to drag him out from the building to stop him from trying to get to the attacker

2017-06-08_11:39:48 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: oh he retired after 20 years like his teacher did

2017-06-08_11:40:00 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: hed promoted 400 black belts, and they could all handle themselves like that

2017-06-08_11:40:07 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: hed done his part for martial arts

2017-06-08_11:40:08 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: no i mean the traiiingn methodology has changed?

2017-06-08_11:40:11 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: oh no

2017-06-08_11:40:15 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: thats not even harsh

2017-06-08_11:40:40 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: he kicked his son in the face during his 3rd dan

2017-06-08_11:40:47 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: because his sons sparring partners weren't beating him hard enough

2017-06-08_11:40:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: dude kept his shoe on

2017-06-08_11:40:52 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: thats kinda fucked

2017-06-08_11:40:59 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i still talk to him hes cool lol

2017-06-08_11:41:15 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: im jumping over to offtopic to keep this channel pristine, sorry for taking it off topic

2017-06-08_11:42:09 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut i can bring this discussion back a little full circle

2017-06-08_11:42:18 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: anyone have any solid description of their fighting styles in dune?

2017-06-08_11:43:06 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: *coughs* off-topic bro ^^

2017-06-08_11:43:24 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: aww, i meant the prana bindu

2017-06-08_11:43:35 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: and when I say that you get to Dune, damn I'm unlucky today xD

2017-06-08_11:43:46 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i can bring anything full circle XD

2017-06-08_11:44:14 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: There isn't any martial art depicted in Dune imo, more like martial training is included into formations

2017-06-08_11:44:49 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: BTW, I do not remember in which book it is, but Bene Gesserit train at least 50 years before even being able to undergo the agony of spice

2017-06-08_11:44:49 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i was just thinking about that. the fight with feyd is detailed enough you could recreate it in person

2017-06-08_11:45:08 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: like when they say he lunges

2017-06-08_11:45:18 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: there's actually kind of only a few ways he could given the situation, setting, and placement

2017-06-08_11:45:33 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: especially pauls fight with

2017-06-08_11:45:35 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: uhhhh

2017-06-08_11:45:38 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: whats his tits in the beginning

2017-06-08_11:45:42 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: So it may be very possible to train for 50 years and becomre precise enough like RM.

Yes, the fight with Feyd, and with Jamis, are detailed enough

2017-06-08_11:45:50 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: his tits ?

2017-06-08_11:45:56 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: jamis

2017-06-08_11:46:12 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: whats his/her tits will be the name of any character who's name i cannot think of!

2017-06-08_11:46:13 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: lol

2017-06-08_11:46:46 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Huh...  not sure I understood

2017-06-08_11:46:59 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: But Jamis is the Fremen that wants revenge on Paul, because Paul bested him

2017-06-08_11:47:12 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: first confirmed kill of Paul

2017-06-08_11:47:30 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: yep

2017-06-08_11:47:38 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but im saying if you were to recreate it

2017-06-08_11:47:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: you could probably identify some stylistics

2017-06-08_11:47:54 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: like, in tkd, they favor kicking, so how they move and dodge

2017-06-08_11:47:58 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: will be oriented toward those kicks

2017-06-08_11:48:00 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: indeed !

2017-06-08_11:48:02 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: same thing for the knife fight

2017-06-08_11:48:19 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I'd say Fremen are practical but not trained the way Paul is

2017-06-08_11:48:29 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: so they are good because of their attitude toward everything

2017-06-08_11:48:33 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: well, they're savage

2017-06-08_11:48:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: savagery can overcome experience and technique

2017-06-08_11:48:45 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: while Paul, and Feyd, are trained with some style

2017-06-08_11:48:52 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: like in that video of my going for another black belt

2017-06-08_11:48:54 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i made a big mistake a lot

2017-06-08_11:48:57 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I didnt attack them

2017-06-08_11:49:01 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and I didnt attack them violently

2017-06-08_11:49:06 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: and Paul gets their savagery, Fremen get his training, Feyd gets killed

2017-06-08_11:49:17 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I think feyd was doomed

2017-06-08_11:49:22 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: his training was...false

2017-06-08_11:49:26 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: if that makes sense

2017-06-08_11:49:31 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i know that feeling

2017-06-08_11:49:36 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: you only fight in the training hall

2017-06-08_11:49:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and in his case, against impaired disadvantaged fighters

2017-06-08_11:50:01 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i can tell you from day one that someone who is trained like that, when they go out and fight someone who is a real fighter, they get annihalated

2017-06-08_11:50:14 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: thats kind of why I left the u.s.?

2017-06-08_11:50:32 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: to see what martial arts was like in europe and middle east

2017-06-08_11:50:38 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: so feyd was screwed

2017-06-08_11:50:45 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: hed never really had a real fight

2017-06-08_11:51:00 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and to be honest the whole fight is kind of dumb in hindsight

2017-06-08_11:51:06 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: cause wasnt it in dune messiah

2017-06-08_11:51:12 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: alia is fighting some training combat droid

2017-06-08_11:51:30 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and paul manages to throw the knife in such a way it slows down through the shield and then speeds up and takes out the control node?

2017-06-08_11:51:31 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: so its like

2017-06-08_11:51:40 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: one flick of the wrist and feyd should have been out

2017-06-08_11:52:06 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: like here's my question

2017-06-08_11:52:16 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: does feyd actually fight in the battle in the fall of corrino house?

2017-06-08_11:52:22 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: hes just kind of there

2017-06-08_11:52:29 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: rabban got killed cause he was fighting, so i think it implies he wasnt

2017-06-08_11:55:10 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: hum....

2017-06-08_11:55:47 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: He actually had some fights, huh ? I mean in the arena he fought a atreides survivor, a good one. Though he used some tricks

2017-06-08_11:55:54 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: No

2017-06-08_11:55:56 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: the survivor was drugged

2017-06-08_11:56:01 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: He used tricks all the time

2017-06-08_11:56:05 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: no he wasn't drugged

2017-06-08_11:56:06 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: no not drugged

2017-06-08_11:56:06 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: sorry

2017-06-08_11:56:11 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: uhhh mentally programmed right

2017-06-08_11:56:32 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: his tricks were pretty much poison

2017-06-08_11:56:34 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: wouldnt work on paul

2017-06-08_11:56:42 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: but he had some pavlov thing that means he gets immobilized if he shouts something

2017-06-08_11:56:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: if Feyd was an A class fighter

2017-06-08_11:56:48 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Paul would have been S+

2017-06-08_11:56:50 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: lol

2017-06-08_11:57:04 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: no clue about Leto

2017-06-08_11:57:07 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: ?? level

2017-06-08_11:57:10 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I'd say that the Paul-Feyd fight was fairly even

2017-06-08_11:57:17 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: it shouldnt have been

2017-06-08_11:57:32 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: given paul had real combat experience, better training than feyd

2017-06-08_11:57:34 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: because of one thing : Paul was having visions and was distracted. tried to fight the jihad. realised it was useless

2017-06-08_11:57:46 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Leto II ? Probably the best fighter

2017-06-08_11:57:48 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: S++

2017-06-08_11:57:53 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: lol he was superhuman

2017-06-08_11:58:25 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: oh thats good point the prescience didnt help him in immediate situations

2017-06-08_11:58:31 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I always found that odd given what happens to him later

2017-06-08_11:59:44 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Well

2017-06-08_12:00:06 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: in Jamis fight he was struglling, he felt that whatever happened would have an influence on the future

2017-06-08_12:00:32 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: But he was completely better than Jamis so he didn't have any problem killing him (except his lack of killing)

2017-06-08_12:01:16 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: in Feyd, he started to actually fight when he realized that his own death would make him a martyr and start the jihad, and that feyd's death would make him invincible and start the jihad

2017-06-08_12:01:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: thats what i mean

2017-06-08_12:01:28 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: There was no point in dying then

2017-06-08_12:01:35 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: his level of skill should have been beyond feyd by that point

2017-06-08_12:01:49 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: ignoring his extra abilities

2017-06-08_12:02:37 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Feyd was also using a needle of poison, Paul knew that, and tried to avoid it. Feyd had the upper hand because Paul was unsure where it was

2017-06-08_12:02:53 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i also wonder why that was relevant

2017-06-08_12:03:06 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I think he could have made the poison useless, but that would have taken much energy

2017-06-08_12:03:06 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: frank herbert kind of screwed some canon up with that possibly

2017-06-08_12:03:12 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: ?

2017-06-08_12:03:14 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: because melange by itself is supposed impart immunity to most poisons

2017-06-08_12:03:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: the sophoric was considered a poison so mild it wouldnt even be detected by a snooper

2017-06-08_12:03:53 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: should have been neglible

2017-06-08_12:03:54 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **Aborschel leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/322344989575348224/levelup.png

2017-06-08_12:04:02 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: cause remember when jessica drinks the water of life again?

2017-06-08_12:04:07 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: after doing it once she just knows how to do it

2017-06-08_12:04:10 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: her body automatically converts

2017-06-08_12:04:14 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: paul after drinking the water should have done it

2017-06-08_12:04:14 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: yes

2017-06-08_12:04:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and since spice is the ultimate poison he should have just naturally handled and shrugged off the poison

2017-06-08_12:04:35 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: he does convert the soporific so he is able to

2017-06-08_12:04:36 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I think that comes up in a BH book with an assassination attempt

2017-06-08_12:04:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: where he gets hit by like a lot of different poisons and then he has to concentrate

2017-06-08_12:04:56 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: yeah but it should have been something he just did, no control over

2017-06-08_12:04:58 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: like with jessica

2017-06-08_12:05:03 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: yeah in a BH book, the count Fenring manages to stab and poison him

2017-06-08_12:05:22 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i think also he gets slammed by a few needle droid thingies

2017-06-08_12:05:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: when his architect betrays him

2017-06-08_12:05:30 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: what

2017-06-08_12:05:38 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: yeah its in one of the BH books

2017-06-08_12:05:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: it deals with when paul was working with face dancers in a circus

2017-06-08_12:06:00 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i dont think it relevant to dune

2017-06-08_12:06:03 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and the fight

2017-06-08_12:06:12 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@315453128436744196> your fight videos are pretty good.. good to learn fromm..have you thought of becoming an instrructor?

2017-06-08_12:06:29 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I was a head instructor of a few schools back in VA

2017-06-08_12:06:35 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and ran a martial arts club out of NVCC

2017-06-08_12:06:52 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i get asked about that here in israel, but ive declined pursuing it

2017-06-08_12:07:09 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Ive done it since I was... 3? And I've been around the world to learn styles

2017-06-08_12:07:16 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: well you can try out Krav Maga...i think it will suit your style

2017-06-08_12:07:21 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: right now what I need to do, even have to do

2017-06-08_12:07:33 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: is learn how to take all those myriad styles and find a way to make them work together where they can

2017-06-08_12:07:52 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: heh, I've had training in KM. Uncle Sam gave me that, and I hadn't even enlisted then XD

2017-06-08_12:08:14 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: my mom was a special forces commander for Grey Fox, so her unit often came over to our home to conduct operation planning

2017-06-08_12:08:19 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: when they found out I did martial arts

2017-06-08_12:08:19 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: well

2017-06-08_12:08:22 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: they liked to fuck withme

2017-06-08_12:08:33 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and showed me a lot of what they were taught by the people brought over by the military to train them

2017-06-08_12:08:56 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: one time they beat me senseless and then tied me up in a sack and hung me from the ceiling. Military people have a strange sense of humor

2017-06-08_12:09:01 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: sleeping bag if i recall

2017-06-08_12:09:13 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: it was funny- when i came to israel

2017-06-08_12:09:26 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I was totally of the mindset I would find super commandos to train with and everybody would know hand to hand

2017-06-08_12:09:29 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: yeah no

2017-06-08_12:09:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: its apparently mostly for show by their armed forces from what I can tell

2017-06-08_12:09:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: kinda surprising

2017-06-08_12:10:10 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: thats another reason paul should have just crushed feyd

2017-06-08_12:10:16 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: his trainers were effectively family

2017-06-08_12:10:24 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: he had by that nature just better teachers

2017-06-08_12:12:54 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but I do appreciate the compliment

2017-06-08_12:13:23 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: my g/f says i look silly when i do martial arts- because I do it so well it looks ridiculous because im white XD

2017-06-08_12:14:30 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I searched for" Gray Fox" I am probably on some list now 😐

2017-06-08_12:14:50 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: yeah i always wonder why i never get yelled at for bringing them up

2017-06-08_12:15:17 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Its like a Metal Gear Solid name

2017-06-08_12:15:22 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: cause like everybody in my fam is watched

2017-06-08_12:15:24 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: nah special forces

2017-06-08_12:15:28 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: they change the name of the unit every couple of years

2017-06-08_12:16:49 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: basically theyre the guys who bagged sadam and osama

2017-06-08_12:17:19 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and its funny- when you see my madre, she's this tiny 4'10" white ashkenazi looking woman with asthma

2017-06-08_12:17:33 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: you would never know she was a colonel lol

2017-06-08_12:28:27 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Hmmm...as Master Yoda says "judge me by my size do you..." 😃

2017-06-08_12:29:20 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: You may want to invest in a good camera, mic and lighting for your Youtube vids...

2017-06-08_15:16:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: thats an extreeeeeemely old channel lol XD

2017-06-08_15:16:53 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but yeah, working on it

2017-06-10_10:08:23 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: In Dune, which scene do you find the most useless/the less relevant ?

2017-06-10_10:08:46 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: hmmmm

2017-06-10_10:08:48 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: none ?

2017-06-10_10:12:30 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: or the less relevant

2017-06-10_10:12:55 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Kind of a tricky question though, since if you find something not interesting, you might have forgotten it

2017-06-10_10:17:18 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i cant think of one

2017-06-10_10:17:38 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: perhaps the thing with the bible was unnecessary/least impactful. But even that becomes relevant later

2017-06-11_18:01:41 GMT | 318785918213423105 | DuneSF: what about that scene ? 🤔

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349823335530496/323522193806065667/481c2f65cb18728f2fa48204a3a8e55b.png

2017-06-11_18:02:53 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@318785918213423105> I belive <@174539900102639617> means the books not the Lynch movie

2017-06-11_18:37:18 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: This is what I meant indeed. Though I would agree this scene in the movie was kinda weird.

2017-06-11_18:40:37 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@174539900102639617> Some believe that the Mohiam "Gom Jabbar Box" scene was redundant..as she really does nothing with the information gained from the test...

2017-06-11_18:46:17 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: well, *she* kinda does nothing but this scene is quite important for the reader.

2017-06-11_18:48:43 GMT | 320671940673273857 | ionah: yeah. w/o Mohiam coming the Castle Caladan, a lot would be missed. and Paul would'nt be considered as a human 😄

2017-06-11_18:49:59 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I feel that its kind of a "Gom Jabbar " test for the reader as well... sort of warning the reader that this is not a typical     sci-fi story.... Things like "To test a human" is not something the average reader is expecting... I feel that its FHerbert's way of telling the reader --pay very close attention to the words being used, and how people are using them..the meanings may not be the ones familiar to you"

2017-06-11_19:15:38 GMT | 318785918213423105 | DuneSF: Dune is also a Bildungsroman - and that scene is a first initiation step, a first trial for Paul in his adventure.

2017-06-11_19:20:37 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: As one of my friends pointed out, The Box reveals the thinking patterns of the Bene Gesserit, the Box is obviously a device that amplifies pain through the stimulation of nerves, we note that the hand is not harmed. The BG are able to do that with the help of their knowledge of human nervous system...

2017-06-11_20:04:30 GMT | 320671940673273857 | ionah: or is it ixian ?!

2017-06-12_06:01:32 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes, ofcourse its probably of Ixian origin...but the BG use a nerve based machine...the Tlelixu will probablu use a more biology based machine... <@320671940673273857>

2017-06-12_09:40:09 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Der the Harkonnen Fete scene with the Fenrings. Literally nothing comes from that.

2017-06-12_09:40:58 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: It's setting up the later duels of Feyd I feel

2017-06-12_13:17:49 GMT | 320671940673273857 | ionah: Well, after the show is done, Lady Margot is up to sex with the young Feyd-Rautha whom genetically luggage is still required to produce a Kwisatz Haderach

2017-06-12_14:38:35 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Plus Fenring gets the idea to send sardaukars disguised as workers.

2017-06-13_09:25:53 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: HMMM

2017-06-13_09:25:55 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: whoops caps

2017-06-13_09:26:01 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: makes one wonder about actual tests like that in life

2017-06-13_09:26:06 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: they're never that direct

2017-06-13_09:26:20 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I always thought it was about that, given the context of her searching for superior human beings

2017-06-13_09:27:18 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: the scene did a few things additionally Id argue

2017-06-13_09:27:28 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: illuminates what harkonnen has been up to

2017-06-13_09:27:38 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and further introduces feyd's weapons training

2017-06-13_09:27:52 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: then you have it explaining a little what's going on with the mentat

2017-06-13_09:28:13 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: its also some of the only illustration of the homeworld of the baron at that time

2017-06-13_09:28:16 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: we have some of caladan

2017-06-13_09:28:22 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: even less of

2017-06-13_09:28:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: why am i blanking on its name

2017-06-13_09:28:40 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: eh either way i think it important for that reason

2017-06-13_09:28:51 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but yeah it doesnt really feel like it moved the plot along

2017-06-13_09:28:57 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: it was more background information