Philosophers of Dune (Discord Server) logs

2017-04-10_16:21:21 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: What about the relationship between Mentats and Zensunni philosophy ?

2017-04-10_16:23:29 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Lol..you could write a book on that

2017-04-10_16:24:35 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Indeed

2017-04-10_16:24:53 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Let's start with something simplier maybe ?

2017-04-10_16:25:13 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I recently read extracts from here..trying to find the full book https://books.google.com/books?id=AmflF2QmEyQC&pg=PA55&dq=mentat+zensunni&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWrsm7pprTAhUBq48KHU3fBM8Q6AEIGzAA

2017-04-10_16:26:55 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Its conditioning...the Tlelixu through conditioning could really crete any sort of being they wanted

2017-04-10_16:27:13 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: a philosopher+mentat+fighter all in one

2017-04-10_16:27:20 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: twisted mentats, corrupted suks, even a kwisatz haderach

2017-04-10_16:28:07 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Always surprised me they didn't take over the Imperium if they had the ability to clone greatest fighters of all times

2017-04-10_16:28:19 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: guess they were afraid of atomics

2017-04-10_16:28:34 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: They played the long game

2017-04-10_16:28:56 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: and when they tried to make their move

2017-04-10_16:29:08 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Sisters understood from the very little they revealed

2017-04-10_16:29:46 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: How to counter a threat as old as the Butlerian Jihad ? Use something dating from that time

2017-04-10_16:29:50 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: also there was a lot of internal politics among the Tleiluxu..they are also depicted as over cautious

2017-04-10_16:30:15 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: yes

2017-04-10_16:31:59 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: the reason the Tleluxu couldnt take over the Imperium is because 1. It would require someone with ties to old system landsraad (paul was a duke's son) + someone who had mass support(paul is seen as a religiuos figure)

2017-04-10_16:32:20 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: the bene Tleliax cant create someone like that at the time of Shaddam at least

2017-04-10_16:32:55 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: the whole Imperium is too diverese and large..having an army is not enough to control all of it

2017-04-10_16:33:57 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Tlelixu already hated across the Imperium by its citizens....they are seen as unclean

2017-04-10_16:34:14 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Too diverse and too large ? Then why do they try in Heretics when human society is even more diverse and large ?

2017-04-10_16:34:29 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Bcoz conditions had changed then

2017-04-10_16:34:38 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Sheeana ?

2017-04-10_16:35:37 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: also Leto II created conditions that resulted in a situation where One Man would never hold absolute power

2017-04-10_16:36:25 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: he ensured  that "The Scattering" takes place

2017-04-10_16:39:00 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: So did the Tleilaxu wish to conquer all of the Old Empire only ? They couldn't take all humans. The Scattering took place

2017-04-10_16:47:30 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Leto II ensured that the "Scattering" will never concentrate power in the hands of a few..so Tlelixu foiled

2017-04-10_16:47:54 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: but this is my interpretation..diff people will have different interpretations

2017-04-10_16:48:00 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: ofc

2017-04-11_20:39:36 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: @everyone Have you ever met anyone in real life who would qualify as a Mentat? For those of us here who went to elite universities like Harvard, MIT did you have any Professors or students who had mentat like capabilities..or someone working as a Quant in a wallstreet brokerage or Investment Bank?...I also find it amusing that Mentats drink the red coloured juice Sapho...our real world equivalent would be red coloured Red Bull 😄

2017-04-11_20:40:18 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: In my Naval division there was a member of the nuclear engineering rate, his name was Ian Rosse. Rosse is literally the smartest human I personally know

2017-04-11_20:40:19 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: So him.

2017-04-11_20:41:13 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: I'm just impressed by people who remembers what they had for lunch three days ago

2017-04-11_20:41:20 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: 😄

2017-04-11_20:45:33 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Would take at least ten years of intensive formation for us to become an imperfect Mentat

2017-04-11_20:45:43 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: or at least thirty

2017-04-11_20:46:11 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I had a professor that was so experienced, he would come every week and start his class from the very last sentence he said in the former meeting.

2017-04-11_20:46:26 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Observation + questioning + analysing + personal development = okayish Mentat

2017-04-11_20:47:44 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: <@301401211771551755> he'd be all like... LEGEN... wait for it *class dismissed* - next morning - *DARY*

2017-04-11_20:47:52 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Also, mentats are the one thing I would have liked to be a thing for real, if it was possible.

2017-04-11_20:48:08 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@89216075446644736> Yes, for some reason the Military doesnt like dumb people fooling around with nuclear technology :D...but all jokes aside...I have met several very sharp scientists..but to be mentat-like would mean someone who had near computer like capacities..they were literally human supercomputers....one mentat could do financial accounts for a noble house in his head..so in the real world we have examples like the woman who did calculations for NASA in her head

2017-04-11_20:48:27 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: That's very impressive

2017-04-11_20:48:33 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Indeed

2017-04-11_20:49:11 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: i will give you the source wait

2017-04-11_20:50:14 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: <@244470278485180416> yeah, in a way. He was a tired professor, so he'd cut 15 minutes from class, because he knew he can still teach us everything he wanted. And he would look at the clock more then we did :)

2017-04-11_20:51:16 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Thing is that a Mentat would be extremely valuable/ Wars could start just for a human being with computer-like abilities in a lot of fields

2017-04-11_20:51:39 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: "You yourself, Baron, could outhink those machines!"

2017-04-11_20:53:03 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Jokes aside, <@244470278485180416> I think mentat abilities are the one thing that can e achieved today with the technology we have. More than Tleilaxu or Bene Gesserit breeding program etc.

2017-04-11_20:53:29 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: My understanding from the books is that a mentat would be like a one-person thinktank ..like "The Rand Corporation" ...he would single handedly do the work of hundreds of regular analysts and strategists

2017-04-11_20:54:14 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Tleilaxu, with ten years of gene editing learning with the new tool CRISPR, could start.

2017-04-11_20:54:46 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: but very rudimentary, if at all

2017-04-11_20:55:03 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@174539900102639617> we actually have a genetic scientist in this server here doing research <@301377168208953344>

2017-04-11_20:55:14 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: <@230009305326157825> are you an admin of this server?

2017-04-11_20:55:20 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes

2017-04-11_20:55:36 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: <@301400782182285312> of course it would be rudimentary. For the beginning at least ^^

2017-04-11_20:55:36 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0fXPzcbmPk

2017-04-11_20:55:44 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: real life mentat 😛

2017-04-11_20:55:59 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: (why is there two jacklonsohn ?)

2017-04-11_20:56:15 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: there's an offline jacklonsohn user. It's from earlier, when I tried to register but couldn't.

2017-04-11_20:56:21 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: can you erase it or something?

2017-04-11_20:56:35 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: oh

2017-04-11_20:56:44 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: done

2017-04-11_20:56:46 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: donc

2017-04-11_20:56:58 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: donc indeed

2017-04-11_20:57:02 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: cheers dborta

2017-04-11_20:57:11 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: lol mistaped in french

2017-04-11_20:57:35 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I know

2017-04-11_20:57:38 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: hihi

2017-04-11_20:58:02 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I have French friends, and they get confused like that all the time 😃

2017-04-11_20:58:22 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Glad to see I'm not the only one with that, I guess ?

2017-04-11_20:59:50 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: The video just posted appears in the Wikipedia entry, IIRC, but I'm not sure this covers the mentat abilities. It is not only mathematical calculation abilities, it is also the ability to make projections about outcomes of certain situations. (which is very similar to prescience, I reckon...)

2017-04-11_21:00:33 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: yea i know but its getting there

2017-04-11_21:00:37 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: <@174539900102639617>  all you french guys are the same 😉

2017-04-11_21:00:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yes...computation is only one aspect

2017-04-11_21:01:17 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: a mentat's greatest weakness is insufficient or inaccuarate data

2017-04-11_21:01:23 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: <@301401211771551755> Wow, that sounded really weird lol

2017-04-11_21:02:23 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: <@174539900102639617> why? there was no bad intention in what I said.

2017-04-11_21:03:11 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Was Duncan Idaho a mentat in God Emperor?

2017-04-11_21:03:19 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: <@230009305326157825> Because Mentats process tons of data and can get other data by questioning and projecting what they reveal. First book, Thufir is able to determine that the Emperor has sent Sardaukar on Arrakis from the information that the Baron told Fenring he planned to make Arrakis a prison-planet

2017-04-11_21:03:29 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Some Duncans were Mentats

2017-04-11_21:03:45 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: but to project the outcome of a situation seems really really difficult, there's just too many variables upon variables, depends on the information i guess though but like to put it simple, imagine if you were to tell the score of a soccer game and all of a sudden a lightning bolt hits, there's no way you could have assumed that would happen

2017-04-11_21:03:52 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: And I don't know, just some... feeling. Didn't felle any bad intentions though

2017-04-11_21:04:28 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The God Emperor had very specific instructions to the Tlelix regarding the properties of the Ghola he required

2017-04-11_21:04:35 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: <@244470278485180416> except if you had the informations that 1) there is orageous weather 2) people still played that match ^^

2017-04-11_21:04:58 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: which makes your point : Mentats need data

2017-04-11_21:05:16 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: <@244470278485180416> did you also watched the soccer game now?

2017-04-11_21:05:32 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: nope

2017-04-11_21:06:36 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Was the Duncan character in GEoD a mentat or not? If not, I think he's the only ghola Duncan who's not a mentat

2017-04-11_21:07:14 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: he was not

2017-04-11_21:07:17 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: <@244470278485180416> I thought you brought up the soccer field example because of the game that was on today

2017-04-11_21:07:27 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: i dont watch sports really haha

2017-04-11_21:07:36 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: that's allright

2017-04-11_21:07:53 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: the twelve duncan from after GeoD were not (the last one wasn't at the beginning, the first duncan wasn't either

2017-04-11_21:08:15 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: first ghola = second duncan was mentat, and zensunni I think ?

2017-04-11_21:08:36 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: just thought of something, sport really isn't a thing in the Duniverse. I guess they have too much going on, but what would be Dunes equivalent to Quidditch? Sandworm Polocrosse? haha

2017-04-11_21:09:40 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: war 😄

2017-04-11_21:10:07 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Hunting in Caladan as a sport for the nobles?

2017-04-11_21:10:32 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: For the Fremen riding worms was a kind of sport maybe..like bullfighting

2017-04-11_21:11:33 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: I guess golf is out of the question, just gonna hit the bunker every time hahaha

2017-04-11_21:11:45 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: haha...sand hazards and worms

2017-04-11_21:12:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: for the bene gesserit you can slip into "othermemory" for any sort of sport...and they could control every muscle and nerve of their body..so didint really need sport for the exercise

2017-04-11_21:12:43 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: <@174539900102639617> the Duncan in Messiah was a mentat, so was the one in Chapterhouse (i.e the one in Heretics). So only the Duncan in God Emperor is not? Am I missing something?

2017-04-11_21:13:34 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@301401211771551755> as far as i remember the duncan in God Emperor was identical to the Duncan that got killed in the first Dune book

2017-04-11_21:13:49 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: nothing extra added

2017-04-11_21:14:02 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: no memeories ..no abilities

2017-04-11_21:14:09 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I guess you can say that because there's still a lot of violence because of wars and interests and too many conflicts, there's no time for them to do any sport for fun

2017-04-11_21:15:07 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: <@230009305326157825> so was the Duncan in messiah (because there was no other Duncan before him, only the original) but it's mentioned that the Tleliaxu trained him as a mentat.

2017-04-11_21:15:31 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Only two known Duncans are known to be Mentats, some may have been without us being informed

2017-04-11_21:15:57 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: yup..a lot of information is held back from the reader

2017-04-11_21:16:28 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: True, I'm only talking about the Duncans who were characters, that we have any ability to know something about them.

2017-04-11_21:16:35 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@301401211771551755> the duncan in Messiah was altered by the Tleilixu....

2017-04-11_21:17:55 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: And the God Emperor tells (Moneo I think) that the Tleilaxu are afraid of him for any unrequested modifications to the Ghola Duncan

2017-04-11_21:18:03 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: So he ain't a mentat in GEoD

2017-04-11_21:18:04 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: By the way was it ever explained how they could produce adult gholas? One would assume gholas were babies at first but the Duncan ghola in Messiah is an adult even though it's like only twelve years after the first book, or did they accelerate his growth?

2017-04-11_21:19:08 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: accelerated growth

2017-04-11_21:19:32 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@301401211771551755> yes unalterd

2017-04-11_21:22:30 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Anyway, I have to go to bed.

2017-04-11_21:22:37 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: it was pretty hilarious in the miniseries when they introduced the Duncan ghola and they go "Look, it's Duncan Idaho, he looks exactly the same!" and it's an entirely different actor

2017-04-11_21:22:56 GMT | 244470278485180416 | zaptagious: alright, good night mate

2017-04-11_21:23:15 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Good night everybody.

2017-04-11_21:23:18 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@244470278485180416> Ahahaha

2017-04-11_21:23:24 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: goodnite all

2017-04-11_21:25:07 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: good night !

2017-04-11_21:25:28 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: (that's because we are from europe lol)

2017-04-11_21:25:41 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: anyway gotta go too, see you around !

2017-04-11_21:28:05 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I didn't get it, but explain it to me another time.

2017-04-18_06:45:19 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The myth of Lisan al-Ghaib, did anyone else find it much too specific to be planted by the Missionaria Protectiva,- and the fact that Paul was acting in accordance with the prophecy--were there many prophecies made that anyone could fit into..or was Paul incredibly lucky?

2017-04-18_06:50:34 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Luck isn't really it. Luck was the Paul was the Haderach, but the Bene Gesserit implanted the specific "prophecy" into the Fremen. If anything, the prophecy theme in Dune is _against_ the usual trope. It was tailored, not by chance.

2017-04-18_06:52:16 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: So do the Bene Gesserit plant myths tailored to future Kwitsatz Haderachs?Because the myths had to be planted a while back...had they already decided the characteristics their Kwitsatz would have?

2017-04-18_06:54:02 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: It was generations and generations ago that the Bene Gesserit "prepared" Arrakis / the Fremen. They have been trying at a Kiwitsatz Haderach for literall ages. As for the exact characteristics, they couldn't control that beyond the specific genome / bloodlines. When they believed one had potential they trained them in the Bene Gesserit way.

2017-04-18_06:54:17 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: The Count Fenring is a good example, he is very much like Paul in good many ways.

2017-04-18_06:56:13 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Hmm...Fenring...its interetsing how feminine his portrayal is...i think F.Herbert wanted to show the weakness in a B.G. trained K.H....any K.H. dominated by the B.G. would be too feminine therefore a failure...this is my interpretation though

2017-04-18_07:00:16 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Fenring is one of my favorite characters of Dune, his mystery and scheming intrigue me

2017-04-18_07:02:09 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes..he is fascintaing...would you classify him as "Neutral-Evil"?

2017-04-18_07:02:28 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: As a character its very hard to get a good read on him

2017-04-18_07:03:54 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Do you think that Paul appears the same to outsiders(the readers get frequent glimpses into his internal thought process..so we can sort of understand his motivations)

2017-04-18_07:04:39 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I'd almost put him at a lawful neutral.

2017-04-18_07:06:04 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Paul undergoes a big transformation, from the beginning of Dune I'd say he would be generally respected and liked on a first impression. He's eager, smart, and talented. But by the end he's feared, seemingly cold to those who don't understand him, and intimidating

2017-04-18_07:12:43 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: For some reason whenever I see Vladimir Putin..he reminds me of Fenring 😄

2017-04-18_07:13:18 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Ew no. Putin wishes he was Fenring

2017-04-18_07:13:27 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Haha..:)

2017-04-18_07:14:28 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I mean the man banned gay clown images of himself

2017-04-18_07:16:22 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: or it could be a sycophant who banned them in order to rise in favour..

2017-04-18_09:31:42 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Fenring ? Lawful-neutral would do IMO.

2017-04-18_09:31:44 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **LackofSins leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349772949094401/303824913343447050/levelup.png

2017-04-18_09:33:17 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Fenring isn't a minister of the Emperor, nor his right-hand. Yet he acts like that, a constant reminder of the Emperor's might and will. A killer hiding in front place.

2017-04-18_09:35:45 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Everybody knows how he can kill without hesitation, who he is, but he talks and behaves like he was innocent and harmless.

2017-04-19_09:29:33 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: What exactly do you think goes into Suk conditioning? Have you ever wondered how it is done?

2017-04-19_14:13:49 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Hypnotranse isn't known to them, it's a Bene Gesserit secret

2017-04-19_14:15:13 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: so it should be intensive behavioral conditioning and training. It's purpose is to strongly repulse all killing desires and actions, or any mean to inflict harm, I guess.

2017-04-19_14:15:48 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: They may use some drinks to lower their impulsivity

2017-04-19_14:16:42 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: The institution forming them may also select them given "natural" instincts, choosing the less aggressive

2017-04-19_14:16:43 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **LackofSins leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349772949094401/304259019516936192/levelup.png

2017-04-21_09:45:19 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: What according to you was the implication of every Sandworm having a "pearl of the God Emperor's consciousness"? How do you think it affected things?

2017-04-21_11:13:33 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: His brain was modified. Its structure wasn't like ours, a rather big ball in the head.

2017-04-21_11:13:49 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: It was more like a lot of small little brains

2017-04-21_11:14:41 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: So I guess when he died, a ton of sandtrouts emerged, each with some parts, or some memories.

2017-04-21_11:15:46 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: The consensus on the Dune reddit is that each of them, and by extension each sandworm, has a small influence on the future. A very tiny prescience. And all this pearls of consciousness all share the endless dream, and carry on the Golden Path, making it possible

2017-04-21_11:16:11 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: so most probably, when Rakis went boom boom, the golden path disappeared

2017-04-21_20:15:02 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I disagree. I think the pearls is a weak idea. It borders with mysticism, and so it is not a valid thing, imo. It's like in the scene from the mini-series, when they fly in the desert, and all of a sudden three worms appear out of nowhere just "standing" erect in front of Leto's 'thopter.

2017-04-21_20:18:31 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I mean, these are animals, they're not human, they're not dolphins. Leto II had to save the desert, and that is why he did the skin thing. The worms are the same, and survived because Leto II merely wanted them to survive so there would be spice to consume.

2017-04-21_20:49:16 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I think its meant to be ambigious..the hard headed reader will go for the second interpretation and the more "mystically-oriented" reader will go for the first

2017-04-21_21:11:30 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I think therein lies the beauty of FH's Dune....there is no right answer..you can have as many interpretations as you want

2017-04-21_21:15:21 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@174539900102639617> my understanding of the "Golden Path" is that the LetoII wanted to create a future for humanity where they wouldnt be dependent on one person who holds power, he wanted the whole species to evolve..so destructio of arrakis ..would not affect his "Golden Path"

2017-04-21_21:16:17 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: rather it would even be desirable to ensure the species did not stagnate

2017-04-22_07:37:37 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Anyone else here feels uncomfortable when "The Preacher" appears? When I read about "The Preacher" it makes me uncomfortable at a deep level..so I asked my friend who knows Jungian pyschology and according to him..some readers will feel uncomfortable..because FH is deliberately breaking the Archetype of the "Hero's journey" ....in the archetype the hero is not supposed to return back to the narrative after his ascension has occured....Also by the time the Preacher appears the average reader identifies strongly with the Fremen..and the Preacher breaks the "blindness" rule of the Fremen..so that is why one feels uncomfortable...thats his reasoning..do you guys have any opinion on this?

2017-04-22_08:19:34 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I should have said that I wasn't sure on if I believed it or not ^^

2017-04-22_08:22:15 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I did not feel uncomfortable... maybe because I'm not a fan of traditions and strict societies

2017-04-22_08:22:29 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: The Preacher, tho, is a cool character

2017-04-22_08:23:58 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: IMO, when he talks, he delivers a secret message directly to the unconscious making him very singular

2017-04-22_08:25:34 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes...that what my friend said what 'The Preacher" says go directly to the subconsciuos/unconscious of the reader

2017-04-22_09:14:39 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: In my mind I immediately draw a parallel to Jesus in the temple steps in the Bible..I think its intentional

2017-04-22_09:15:01 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The part in the Bible where Jesus criticizes the priests....

2017-04-22_17:53:13 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: So, this is off topic but I've been mulling around a question.

2017-04-22_17:56:00 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: So when they explain the power structure of the Imperium they say its a tripod, with power shared between the Emperor, the Landsraad, and the Spacing Guild. They distinctly say that this is unstable, but why? It sounds exactly like the USA system of having three branches keeping each other in in check. Also the Imperium is what, 10,000 years old, obviously the system is exceptionally stable to last that long

2017-04-22_17:56:01 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **chopper085 leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349772949094401/305401373867114516/levelup.png

2017-04-22_18:38:55 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> well its not off-topic..its relevant to this channel...and we hope you have more questions like this..My understanding is that the US system of checks and balances is more stable..bcoz all 3 branches work for the protection of the US..in times of crisis the three branches will cooperate to defeat external threats..in the case of the Emperor, the Guild and the LR...theyare held together by purely commerical interests..and they always put their own interests first..there is no shared vision uniting these three..that is why it is unstable

2017-04-22_18:41:15 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I meant off topic as in I'm not sure how to begin a new conversation in a thread.

2017-04-22_18:41:46 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But when I mentioned the US, it was only to demonstrate a RL example of a tripod system

2017-04-22_18:43:01 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@89216075446644736> any idead how to organise questions/topics/discussions without making new channels...Do hashtags work

2017-04-22_18:43:04 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And as an aside (as I love constituational law) technically the US government are presumed not to work for our benefit, tge basic idea behind the US constitution is that men are corruptable

2017-04-22_18:44:15 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: <@230009305326157825> You can have people do labels so that the search function can easily be used to track them

2017-04-22_18:44:25 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: e.g: [Book 1: (x)]

2017-04-22_18:45:14 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@89216075446644736> yes..thats a good idea

2017-04-22_18:48:05 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> Well in FH's Dune...the tripod system is vulnerable to sudden changes in the flow of spice...eg...since the Spacing Guild depends upon spice..if for some reason the Emperor chose to limit the export of spice it would create problems for the rest of them..and the emperor was afraid of the LR becasue their members had access to atomics..so it was a tripod held togetther with fear and paranoia....

2017-04-22_18:48:45 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: combined with commercial interests ..which makes the whole thing very unstable

2017-04-22_18:50:02 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The memebers of the three branches of the US..all swear allegiance to the Constitutuion/Flag....The Spacing Guild , The Emperor...etc have seperate flags...so  effectivel y they are seperate nation states to use the term loosely

2017-04-22_18:50:27 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: @dborta But all parties have power over one another. For example, in your scenario, the SG could just halt all travel to  and from Kaitan. Strand the Crown forever.

2017-04-22_18:50:52 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And just make another house emperor.

2017-04-22_18:51:48 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Like wise, the Landraad's combined strength could destroy the emperor

2017-04-22_18:52:23 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Also, the only reason EVERYONE uses tge spacing guild is bc the have a perfect track record.

2017-04-22_18:52:59 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: The guild has a monopoly on navigation, not travel. The houses could go back to months long travel if they really needed to

2017-04-22_18:54:52 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> yes ..its a lose-lose situation if they went against one another.... that is why they created CHOAM...a unified conglomerate..the idea behind CHOAM(this is my interpretation) is that conflict is likely to be limited to things like Kanly(War of assasins) and not full scale war..as CHOAM business activities would be disrupted in a major war..so everyone tries to maintain the balance..to keep getting profits

2017-04-22_18:55:43 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: See, i never too choam seriously. I thought it was just a company that the empire acted through.

2017-04-22_18:56:58 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: If the Spacing Guild stranded the emperor..he could officially take away the CHOAM profits of the SG(Spacing Guild)...and the SG got substantial profits from CHOAM...the emperor could also declare active hostilities on the SG...destroying their ships etc...

2017-04-22_18:59:34 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: And the top people in the SG(Spacing Guild) the third-stage and above navigators are badly addicted to spice..they literally cant survive withoout it...and they had stockpiles of spice which would probably be targeted by the Emperor...

2017-04-22_19:03:38 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: How is anyone gonna inow that if he cant get word out?

2017-04-22_19:04:03 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And who is gonna care when the new emperor with the Neo-Choam is handing out better contracts?

2017-04-22_19:07:23 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes..the Landsraad has spies in Kaitan..when those spies stop reporting back..the memebers of the Landsraad will start gettign worried..the memebrs of the LR then will demand that the SG take them to Kaitan..wheere they will meet the very angry emperor :D..so yes not very easy to strand the Empeoror without consequences.... If the SG wants a different house empeoror..they will have to pick one from the landsraad...but the new empeoror and the LR will see how easily the old one was starnded by the SG..trust in SG will be abysmally low...and the LR and new empeoror will start attacking SG to make it weaker

2017-04-22_19:07:35 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985>

2017-04-22_19:07:51 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I am sure <@174539900102639617> will have an even better answer to your question

2017-04-22_19:11:31 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: See, i don't think so. Leaders a very easily replaced. And yes, all tgey would have to do is pick a house from the Landsraad. I think they would go with the SG as you yourself mentioned that they are very intereseted in self interest lol. I don't think this new emperor would attack the SG though. It would go back to the old system as the SG is what makes the empire possible.

2017-04-22_19:14:26 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes assuming they picked a new leader the rest of the LR would try to counter the growing power and interfereing policies of the SG..plus the Empeoror is by no means a figurehead..he has Sardaukar troops- the most feared warriors in the Imperium..The SG cannot strand anyone since they make space travel safer..the Emperor still could travel but with lesser safety

2017-04-22_19:15:14 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The Imperium will be badly affected if the Guild stopped Space travel but it would defiitley survive

2017-04-22_19:16:24 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: How can he use his Sar. In this scenario?

2017-04-22_19:17:22 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> he will take his Sard. to the SG planet and start wrecking them,....he will lose some ships on the way..but still moreorless detroy the SG

2017-04-22_19:18:10 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I also disgree about the Inperium. Without the SG's foldspace the inperium goes back to months long travel times on old style ships. This is basically a 1700s style of government, and look how easy it is for colonies to break off in the situation

2017-04-22_19:18:33 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: How is the emperor going to get his Sar to the SG planet?

2017-04-22_19:19:30 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985>  yes definitely it chances are high of planets declaring independence...the Empeoror will send his troops in old style ships I suppose..ships withouut Guild navigators..ships that could get lost..but some will get through

2017-04-22_19:19:41 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: He canr fold space, and i don't think he has a fleet of pre-foldspace ships sitting around on kaitain for him to get to SelSec and then take his fleet to SG HQ?

2017-04-22_19:20:00 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: He could make them i suppose?

2017-04-22_19:20:26 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Any houses that ally with the SG will be able to use SG ships to harass this slower fleet.

2017-04-22_19:20:37 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: How long is that gonna take?

2017-04-22_19:20:48 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Im gonna say that kaitain has no industry

2017-04-22_19:21:08 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Its probably nothing but estates and hunting grounds

2017-04-22_19:21:24 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes..some LR houses might side with SG..so that will comlicate matters...

2017-04-22_19:21:46 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And while he's doing this this new emperor could just pay the Sar. More to get their loyalty.

2017-04-22_19:22:14 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Their loyalty is entirely based on payment. They're the Roman Praetorian Guard

2017-04-23_06:39:09 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: The thing is, the SG cares about one thing and that's the spice. They don't care who is the emperor that makes this happen. Therefore, there is no reason for them to actively dethrone the emperor.

2017-04-23_06:40:04 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Well, in my scenario the emperor is actively working against the ST which would cause this action.

2017-04-23_06:53:37 GMT | 305014139183693826 | ecbacon: @chopper085, sorry to come in so late on your question about the tripod of power, you might have already got an answer, but I think that the tripod is unstable in a realpolitik sense, because it can collapse if any two elements of the tripod decide to team up against the third element. In realist political theory, a hegemony is the most stable system, because noone can challenge the hegemon. A 2-power system is also stable because the 2 powers are balanced against each other. In a 3 power system, any alliance will overpower the 3rd party.

The reason this is not true of the US Constitutional system of checks and balances is because the 3 branches exist within a structure that prohibits direct conflict between the branches. They arent in charge of armies that can fight one another.

2017-04-23_06:55:35 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: @ecbacon oh you're fine. What do you mean hegemonic power? And If it's such an unstable system, What do you think has caused it to last for so long?

2017-04-23_07:05:05 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> It has lasted that long because of no new technological inventions...in the later books the Ixians develop a method of artificially creating Spice..which if it would have happened in the time of Shaddam would have unbalanced the tripod system

2017-04-23_07:06:57 GMT | 305014139183693826 | ecbacon: hegemonic power is like the US after the cold war. One superpower.

Why the Empire, SG and LR have stood for 10k years is a good question. I will have to go back and read the conversation thus far.

It does seem to resemble historical systems, though, such as any kingdom in medieval Europe. The catholic church was one power: it provided communication between the nations because they were the only literate people in Europe. The King was a second power, and the feudal lords were a third power. The king protected the lords from other kings, and the feudal lords ran the economy.

2017-04-23_07:07:16 GMT | 305014139183693826 | ecbacon: <@230009305326157825> I like that analysis

2017-04-23_07:09:36 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: See i have to disagree with hegemonic power. Being a hegemonic power is unsustainable. It broke the CCCP and its breaking the US currently. I mean we're in a seven front war currently.

2017-04-23_07:37:24 GMT | 305014139183693826 | ecbacon: I am only repeating something i learned in a political philosophy class, it might be untrue. But the USSR (ie CCCP) example doesnt fit, because they were not a global hegemon--they were in conflict with the US. Who knows what would have happened if NATO didnt limit their trade routes to half the globe and run up their defense budget. However the Cold War is an example of the binary system.

It does seem, like you said, that there is a pattern of hegemons rising, then falling because of internal dynamics

2017-04-23_07:37:37 GMT | 305014139183693826 | ecbacon: so maybe it is not the most stable

2017-04-23_08:00:37 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Again, I have to disagree (I'm sorry for that  at this point) about the CCCP. They had open trade relations with a large part of the world and had considerable access to resources in their own sphere. What brought them down was their mismanagement of resources and constant build up to maintain parity with the West. It wasn't helped by the fact that their industrial base had been cheaply built, managed, and maintained from the start

2017-04-23_08:01:12 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Like they woukd give considerable amounts of resources and aide to their satellites for little to nothing in return in some cases

2017-04-23_08:02:06 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: We in the U.S. are doing the same

2017-04-23_08:02:38 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Aide with no value in returns, over exemption to maintain an logistics system and constant cycle of war that is no longer sustsinable.

2017-04-23_08:02:53 GMT | 305014139183693826 | ecbacon: No apology necessary. This is an enjoyable discussion. I think you may be right. if the USSR had been managed better, they might not have fallen despite their conflict with the US. I hadnt thought of that

2017-04-23_08:09:51 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Also, if you're intobsoviet history please say So, I would love to discuss it with someone who isn't on a Leninist dank meme forum lol

2017-04-23_08:10:26 GMT | 305014139183693826 | ecbacon: Haha. I got kicked out of r/communism for that.

2017-04-23_08:10:27 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **ecbacon leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349772949094401/305616396606242816/levelup.png

2017-04-23_08:10:55 GMT | 305014139183693826 | ecbacon: kore wa?

2017-04-23_08:12:29 GMT | 305014139183693826 | ecbacon: <@267882472157609985> yeah if you start another thread on Soviet history invite me

2017-04-23_08:12:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: well you cant blame people for making memes I mean.."Seize the means of production" You can make a million memes from that alone

2017-04-23_08:13:31 GMT | 305014139183693826 | ecbacon: lol i meant to say i got kicked out for not being Leninist

2017-04-23_08:14:48 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh i wanted dank memes

2017-04-23_08:15:01 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: It just turned out to be a communist fan page

2017-04-23_08:15:15 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: They're wonderfully easy to get to agree witg you though

2017-04-23_08:15:28 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: All you have to do is justify their point of view as being bourgeois

2017-04-23_08:16:23 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: And I'll start a thread if I can find some other interested parties

2017-04-23_08:16:35 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Forgive the pun

2017-04-23_08:16:43 GMT | 305014139183693826 | ecbacon: lol you should start a dank lenin meme thread

2017-04-23_08:16:48 GMT | 305014139183693826 | ecbacon: haha

2017-04-23_08:17:00 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I don't want to be on a govt list!

2017-04-23_08:17:14 GMT | 305014139183693826 | ecbacon: too late probably

2017-04-23_08:17:55 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Truth... lol

2017-04-23_20:00:09 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Hello guys ! Haven't gotten much time to be on the reddit these days (elections + family), and this conversation is good

2017-04-23_20:04:40 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I think, to the question of the tripod in FH's Dune, that we seem to mesestimate the Sisterhood. Remember that we are shown in the first book how much they are linked to the Major Houses and the Imperium. For obvious reasons, not to the Spacing Guild. Given their Second memory, they can ensure and manipulate the two parts that the Landsraad and the Emperor are, in a very long term. This stabilizes the tripod by preventing them to team up against the Spacing Guild, or to tear each other up (or just one Major house like Atreides on Arrakis). However, like the Spacing Guild, they are dependent over the Spice. So if the Spacing Guild was to attack the Sisterhood, they would attack the Spice... which would be suicidal.

2017-04-23_20:05:14 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: IMO it's stable as long as you consider the role of the Sisterhood

2017-04-24_01:18:42 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I like this idea, but I feel like the BG don't need the Imperium. Like if the Imperium fell they'd be the ones to survive, As we see in god emperor.

2017-04-24_01:18:58 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: But i think you may be right that they are the keystone

2017-04-24_01:22:09 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: The Bene Gesserit has implanted themselves so deep into the politics and cultures of worlds that they would survive seemingly anything.

2017-04-24_01:26:11 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Exactly, its almost a given lol

2017-04-24_11:47:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: There is this crazy fan theory that Paul is actually a ghola created by the Bene Tleliax...Remember in the first book he suddenly acquires Mentat awareness and abilities...According to this theory Paul has been modified by the Tlelixu to become a mentat under certain trigger conditions..what do you think of this theory?

2017-04-24_11:49:43 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Idk.

2017-04-24_11:49:44 GMT | 172002275412279296 | Tatsumaki: 🆙  |  **chopper085 leveled up!**

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349772949094401/306033972926742538/levelup.png

2017-04-24_11:49:52 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Okay...

2017-04-24_11:50:47 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I only say that because I felt like his mentat abilities weren't really expanded on and I feel like it didn't matter much to the story

2017-04-24_11:51:04 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes it seemed like a forced add-on

2017-04-24_11:51:11 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Can someone explain this level thing?

2017-04-24_11:51:36 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The more you contribuye to the server ..the higher your level will be

2017-04-24_11:52:06 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: *contribute

2017-04-24_11:54:09 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Ah I see

2017-04-24_12:13:13 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: yes, explain this theory

2017-04-24_12:13:37 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: There could be a thousand things to accreddit it, and a thousand things not fitting in

2017-04-24_12:19:28 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well the evidence supporting it-   ...Mentats can only be created by the Tlelilaxu..where did Paul get Mentat training from? His sudden awareness of mentat abilities is very similar to awareness the Duncan gholas have of their pasts...-The Tlelixu are known to be masters of the end-game....-all dune characters keep referring to plans-within-plans-....

2017-04-24_12:25:24 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Mentat dont just come from tlelilaxu

2017-04-24_12:25:40 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: They can make them, but their not the only source

2017-04-24_12:25:57 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: do you know any other non-tleliluxu mentat?

2017-04-24_12:26:01 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: in the books?

2017-04-24_12:26:13 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Thufir

2017-04-24_12:28:45 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: ok

2017-04-24_12:29:09 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: is it explicitly mentioned in the book that PAul was trained by HAwat?

2017-04-24_12:31:55 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Yeah

2017-04-24_12:32:18 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I know about general training..I meant specifically mentat training

2017-04-24_12:32:19 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Also the BG operate a mentat school in the 2  post GE books

2017-04-24_12:33:08 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yes in the post-GE era...

2017-04-24_12:34:23 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: No, the point is that the mentat are trained ppl. Not grown like twisted mentat, which do come from Tlelilaxu

2017-04-24_12:34:46 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: There is a main school, but I forget which planet its based

2017-04-24_17:22:55 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Hey is this true? Can anyone verify this

2017-04-24_17:23:09 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta:

 attachment: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/300349772949094401/306117877961064449/mentat_kim.png

2017-04-24_17:23:30 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: If its true then he is a proto-mentat

2017-04-24_17:23:54 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Who is this guy?

2017-04-24_17:24:17 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: KimPeek--guy with photographic memory and apparently mentat like calculation powers

2017-04-24_17:25:05 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Was he the one who could not forget anything?

2017-04-24_17:27:23 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Yup

2017-04-24_17:31:09 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Do you think mentat will be a reality in the future?

2017-04-24_17:33:00 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well compared to cavemen we are already mentats 😄

2017-04-24_17:41:21 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: That's true ;)

2017-04-24_18:53:55 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Okay. So Mentats can be created by Tleilaxu, but other do not. Explain Teg and Thufir then ?. Second point : Mentat training from Thufir who considered Paul as a son. Third point : No. It becomes a moment where he joins together a lot of small elements to make a mosaic very coherent, like Duncan does in Chapterhouse. Gholas need a stimulus-shock to make their former personnality come back consciously, supposedly dead. 4th point : So the Tleilaxu create a Kwisatz Haderach with objective to create their own Prophet ? What ? Last point : not relevant here, just a sentence without any meaning right now, and far too many interpretations.

2017-04-25_11:19:40 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: So how has Dune affected the way you view the world?

2017-04-25_13:26:56 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I think on the long-term now. I'll only live up to 70 y.o, maybe 80

2017-04-25_13:27:08 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: so it may be useless 😄

2017-04-25_19:19:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: So would you rather sleep with a honored matre or a Bene Gesserit witch? :D..You can only spend one night with either..

2017-04-25_19:42:30 GMT | 250665644733890570 | Pipes-Many-Momes: I choose third option

2017-04-25_19:42:35 GMT | 250665644733890570 | Pipes-Many-Momes: sandworm

2017-04-25_19:45:30 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I choose a BG because I worry from the sexual enslavement of HM

2017-04-26_07:07:45 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@250665644733890570> Haha :)....I am sure you will sandworm porn somewhere on the deep web

2017-04-26_07:33:35 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I like guys soo....

2017-04-26_07:43:43 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: A BG, that would mean I have valid genetic material of course!

2017-04-26_08:15:19 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@267882472157609985> in ur case Feyd or Paul 😉

2017-04-26_08:15:37 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@174539900102639617> this could be a rogue BG

2017-04-26_08:18:56 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: who doesnt care about ur genetics

2017-04-26_08:19:25 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Lovely Feyd

2017-04-26_08:20:10 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <:feyd2:304498980346134529> vs <:paul:304498979998269440>

2017-04-26_08:20:57 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Feyd was a great character. I mean, I'm an edited version of his name

2017-04-26_08:21:02 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: He was my favorite Harkonnen

2017-04-26_08:41:32 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh god neither lol

2017-04-26_08:41:32 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Maybe a younger Gurney, maybe...

2017-04-26_08:41:32 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I never got the impression that is be attracted to any of the male characters

2017-04-26_08:42:01 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Oh god neither lol

2017-04-26_08:42:04 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I never got the impression that is be attracted to any of the male characters

2017-04-26_08:42:09 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Maybe a younger Gurney, maybe...

2017-04-26_08:42:28 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: I have a skewed sense of what constitutes a handsome male lol

2017-04-26_08:49:58 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Everyone got a preference, being picky is fine

2017-04-26_09:01:01 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: <@301401211771551755> well there wont be any enslavement as you wont be seeing each other again...

2017-04-26_09:02:45 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: <@89216075446644736> lol I'm not trying to be picky, I just don't like pretty boys lol

2017-04-26_09:03:01 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Well again, everyone has a preference 😄

2017-04-26_09:03:06 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: Just so long as you're not into the Baron

2017-04-26_09:03:07 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: hehue

2017-04-26_09:03:11 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: <@230009305326157825> Ah :c

2017-04-26_09:03:17 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: into ?

2017-04-26_09:03:22 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Nice choice of words Jeyd

2017-04-26_09:03:40 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: How so?

2017-04-26_09:04:46 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: being into

2017-04-26_09:04:56 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: can be interpretated sexually

2017-04-26_09:05:00 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: heheh

2017-04-26_09:05:15 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: as the Baron is known for his love of young people too

2017-04-26_09:05:32 GMT | 89216075446644736 | Jeyd: I save my word choice for my work 😄

2017-04-26_09:05:54 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: hehe

2017-04-26_11:35:37 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: How i remember reading those scenes for the first time. I was like 13 and those were my firdt rape scenes in a book

2017-04-26_11:56:00 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: <@230009305326157825> db you're right, but I fear I will stay without a closure.

2017-04-26_12:43:21 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Who is your favorite Bene Gesserit "witch"?

2017-04-26_12:44:00 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Helen

2017-04-26_13:24:57 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: Any particular reason?

2017-04-26_13:49:09 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Her movie portrayals lol

2017-04-26_13:49:42 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Idk. In book maybe odrade? Before the last 2, other than Jessica all of the BG are kinda 2d

2017-04-26_13:49:54 GMT | 267882472157609985 | chopper085: Last 2 books*

2017-04-26_13:52:33 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: I like Odrade too.

2017-04-27_07:35:51 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Odrade is kind of like gf material 😃

2017-04-27_10:05:01 GMT | 301401211771551755 | jacklonsohn: But she's married to her work 😛

2017-04-28_11:46:29 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Taraza

2017-05-05_15:44:03 GMT | 307537896301133834 | Novice Allison: Dunan Idaho. The lover.

2017-05-05_15:45:19 GMT | 307537896301133834 | Novice Allison: My fave BG witch was also Odrade. I loved her. But not like that, like in the way she needed the HM to love her and the BG. It was all back to love. The key to the universe.

2017-05-17_15:48:01 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Well Idaho who is a well-known ladies man

2017-05-17_17:02:00 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: And his genetics were valuable as well

2017-05-31_15:48:18 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: A very interesting answer on Quora..about "The Golden Path"

2017-05-31_15:48:18 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: https://www.quora.com/In-the-Dune-Chronicles-what-is-the-Golden-Path/answer/Dan-Holliday

2017-06-06_20:35:13 GMT | 320671940673273857 | ionah: 🤔  a question raised on Instagram, which might inquire your perspectives :  

"If science fiction is meant to raise perception by depicting our world from the outside, how do the giant sandworms of Dune figure into that framework?"

https://www.instagram.com/p/BUxpqT7FMwZ/

2017-06-06_20:35:36 GMT | 320671940673273857 | ionah: https://scontent-fra3-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/18879270_1700860953542334_7979632284837871616_n.jpg

2017-06-06_22:09:40 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Considering spice is the resource, and the worm the maker (I didn't realize the double meaning before writing it), it fits the ecological message FH added into Dune

2017-06-06_22:10:16 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: "take care of your environment, careful 'bout it or it will blow you up"

2017-06-07_03:59:53 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Im not sure worms directly do because they are terrestrial presumably in origin. Their entreatment, as a deity as well as natural force kind of allows for commentary on sun-worshiping faiths, but Im not sure it relevant to today's particular religions.

2017-06-07_07:39:08 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: There is definitely an aspect of natural religion in the worms...

2017-06-07_07:39:48 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: From a psychoanalytical perspective they represent the Eid... The sandworm Riders represents the superego

2017-06-07_07:40:11 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The superego is always trying to control the impulses of the Eid

2017-06-07_08:03:31 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Hey question

2017-06-07_08:03:42 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: When the tleilaxu came up with synthetic spice... I recall it not working

2017-06-07_08:03:44 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: it worked?

2017-06-07_08:03:56 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Or the worm is just a penis

2017-06-07_08:04:03 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: it did work

2017-06-07_08:04:19 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: I thought they found another way to produce spice- it was the same substance

2017-06-07_08:04:49 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: its not amal, or the superspice, its just spice right, but made through oh what do you call em

2017-06-07_08:05:01 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: damn why cant i remember the name of the birth chambers for the tleilaxu

2017-06-07_08:05:08 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: axlotl tanks

2017-06-07_08:05:12 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: there you go

2017-06-07_08:05:32 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but it was spice, not another form of spice right?

2017-06-07_08:05:38 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: And it was artifiial yet usable

2017-06-07_08:05:51 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Though most people could tell by the taste which one was "natural"

2017-06-07_08:05:54 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: was it artificial? i thought aritificially made but was still spice

2017-06-07_08:06:06 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: yes

2017-06-07_08:06:12 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: hmmmm

2017-06-07_08:06:21 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i think i might need to edit a part of this info vid im working on

2017-06-07_08:06:34 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i state they never actually create a working copy

2017-06-07_08:07:00 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but that seems... debatable

2017-06-07_08:08:09 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: what do you think of this statement

2017-06-07_08:08:46 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: they never create a working copy of spice, such as through the efforts of project Amal, but were able to eventually produce spice through the axlotl tanks during the time of the honored matres.

2017-06-07_08:08:55 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: But I mean is it actually molecularly different from spice?

2017-06-07_08:09:13 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: Weird to bring this up, but have you ever heard of the synthetic weed spice?

2017-06-07_08:09:32 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: The laws to outlaw it basically banned the molecule

2017-06-07_08:09:36 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: so at first jwh-018

2017-06-07_08:09:50 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: then people started smoking jwh-073, different molecule but same effect

2017-06-07_08:10:00 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: going back to dune, spice would be jwh-018

2017-06-07_08:10:09 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: and the synthetic axlotl would be jwh-073

2017-06-07_08:10:13 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: Hmm...THC molecule artificial??

2017-06-07_08:10:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but i was under the impression the axlotl tanks were producing the same spice as jwh-018

2017-06-07_08:10:29 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: yeah, dont do it

2017-06-07_08:10:54 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: its a drug that spooks heroine and crack addicts. And the withdrawal is brutal

2017-06-07_08:11:15 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: lol

2017-06-07_08:11:34 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but see what im saying, it's a question of if it's a different substance/molecular combination

2017-06-07_08:11:54 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: or the same thing just made differently

2017-06-07_08:12:01 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: ionno logically it has to be different than the original spice right?

2017-06-07_08:12:22 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: cause i dont want to state in this video they never actually reproduce the original spice, if in fact they did

2017-06-07_08:14:43 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: I'm sorry i was busy for a few minutes

2017-06-07_08:14:48 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: reading your stuff now

2017-06-07_08:16:06 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Hum... we don't know when the tleilalxu actually invented this artficial spice

2017-06-07_08:16:21 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: during the great scattering right?

2017-06-07_08:16:23 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: it's after GeoD, before Heretics

2017-06-07_08:16:27 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: yeah

2017-06-07_08:16:37 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: 10 000-year gap

2017-06-07_08:16:41 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: at the minimum

2017-06-07_08:16:41 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: you have that massive time skip

2017-06-07_08:17:47 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: But this spice has the same effects that original spice. But, as spice is from Rakis, it has some sand with it, etc. It's like you could distinguish tomatoes from two countries because they don't taste the same

2017-06-07_08:18:03 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: yeaaaah crap

2017-06-07_08:18:10 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: i gotta change that part in the video

2017-06-07_08:18:20 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: great. now its going to be 20 minutes long. damn

2017-06-07_08:19:03 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Well

2017-06-07_08:19:18 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: Better that than saying bullshit I guess ?

2017-06-07_08:19:46 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: welllll the problem is moreso

2017-06-07_08:19:50 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: the way i said it is technically true

2017-06-07_08:19:59 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: but why be disiengenuous yknow?

2017-06-07_08:20:06 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: disingenuous*

2017-06-07_08:20:12 GMT | 315453128436744196 | Aborschel: wow english crapped out for a sec XD

2017-06-07_08:22:17 GMT | 174539900102639617 | LackofSins: yeah i see

2017-06-07_09:26:11 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: I suppose people who took artificuial spice could tell the difference as we can tell the difference between sugar and artificail sweeteners

2017-06-07_12:53:58 GMT | 318732371115507712 | Anudar: As for me, the tleilaxu spice in Heretics' no ersatz. It's the same as the thing, but it's man-made.

2017-06-10_11:04:52 GMT | 320671940673273857 | ionah: just found out that article.

Orphan of the Stars: Ideology as Will

"One core element I wanted for Psi-Wars was ideology.  I wanted religion, culture and the flow of ideas to be a major element of gameplay, both in trying to create it, and trying to manage it.  Dune had its faith, yes, but it also had the cultural differences between the "soft" nobility, the originally "hard" sarduakar and the legitimately "hard" fremen.  In many ways, Dune turns on what it takes to make great men, or the upsides and downsides of certain ideological leanings."

http://mailanka.blogspot.de/2017/06/orphan-of-stars-ideology-as-will.html

2017-06-14_09:33:38 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: A spanish blog post on the Bene Gesserit...Google Translate works more or less 😃

2017-06-14_09:33:40 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: https://nemeronwriter.com/la-bene-gesserit-de-dune-la-hermandad-femenina-que-pretendia-controlar-el-destino-de-la-especie-humana/

2017-06-14_09:35:53 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: https://nemeronwriter.com/sardaukar-tropas-de-asalto-del-emperador/

2017-06-14_09:36:07 GMT | 230009305326157825 | dborta: The site has other Dune-related posts as well